Developing Emotional Fearlessness - Understanding E.I. - an interview with Gary Hosey

The Restless Midlifer : Episode 71

In this episode, Dave shares a thought or two on becoming more comfortable with your emotions and developing a sense of emotional fearlessness. Dave is also joined by Gary Hosey, an Emotional Intelligence coach and expert with years of experience helping individuals, teams and leaders develop their understanding and skills in this area. A really valuable insight into how we can learn to not only harness our emotions to achieve our goals but also to find joy and a richness in experiencing the more fully.

Gary Hosey's journey started with emotional dysfunction: his family didn't practice self-awareness around feelings, moods, emotions, and their impact on us and how we relate to other people, the skills we now understand as the game-changer emotional intelligence or EQ.

In 1999 he embarked on an EQ adventure in his personal and professional life, and in 2003 became EQ-i 2.0 certified. He's now worked with over 7000 leaders from over 100 global organisations as a coach and trainer.

Links

Dave Algeo is a Restless Midlifer, searching for answers and adventure. His mission, should you choose to join him, is to seek out ways to get life back on his terms, heading in a more fulfilling direction and enhancing his health in the process. Dave is a writer, coach, and constantly curious person, striving to encourage others to live big - by identifying the small but significant things that can transform the life we are living. Join Dave as he explores how to regain the spirit of adventure and childlike curiosity whilst managing the "grown-up" responsibilities of life.

Dave's approach to making changes in life, health and direction, is rooted in his 'sprout sweater philosophy. Check out his 'Crackerjack' video here https://youtu.be/OZM4ObMSu6U to learn more about the basic metaphor. Check out episodes 30 and 31 to learn more about Dave's approach.

Visit https://www.midlifereshape.com/podcast or search for 'Restless Midlifer' in your favourite podcast feed. To find out more about the podcast, and episode show notes visit https://www.midlifereshape.com/podcast Drop Dave a line at dave@restlessmidlifer.com to ask questions, offer feedback or suggestions for future podcast content.

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Transcript (AI generated):

[00:03] Dave: The Restless Midlife of Podcast get health, wit and life back on your terms. Hi, welcome to episode 71 of The Restless Midlife a podcast. And we have a great interview to dear with Gary Hawsey, who's a friend over the last few years and is an expert on the topic of emotional intelligence and developing that, working with companies and individuals, managers, leaders, coaching around, raising our emotional intelligence. Now, for me, this is a key area that I think is really important because we might be embarking on a particular goal and health goal, something like this and we're getting fit, that kind of thing. But for me it's not about the diet and I haven't seen that as a phrase because whilst that might generate thoughts of Lance Armstrong and not about the bike and clearly it wasn't about the bike, that's another story. But the point is it isn't about the diet. Very often what happens is, yes, it's about the habits, it's making the habits sweat a ball, we do them every day, et cetera, et cetera. But it's also about the other side of life, the fact that life happens. And one aspect that I think we don't appreciate or value enough of the impact and the importance of his emotions, our experience of them, our ability to empathize and connect with us. So this interview, I think, with Gary is really useful because it helps us to see and frame emotions in a way that perhaps we can step away from, perhaps some other fluffy feelings and perceptions around misperceptions, around feelings. They're powerful and important things that have evolved and we need them and actually managing them in a more positive way and allowing them is far, far better and far, healthier and far will allow us to stay on track with our goals far more effectively than trying to resist them, deny them, crush them down, shut them out, block them out with alcohol, overwork or whatever else. And that brings me to, I guess my little thought for today before we get on the interview is how are you in terms of your comfort with emotions? With your emotions, not just the positives but the uncomfortable, the painful. Because perhaps if you are somebody who might have been brought up like I was brought up to sort of just shut the f up and get on with it. And for me, being kind of a Northern Bloke type attitude or whatever those kinds of things, we see emotions, negative emotions that we label as negative, as problematic. And I think one of the challenges is that we need to sort of reframe but learn to become more fearless in the presence of our emotions. And I think that phrase I think is useful because we can be afraid of experiencing them and that can actually add to the intensity of things like anxiety and negative thinking and negative thinking patterns because we actually actively avoid and how do we get more comfortable with them. Now, I'm not just saying that we go straight out and start trying to, at every moment experience our emotions. There is a lot of practices. There are practices like mindfulness which can be useful, and just touching base through things like journaling and reflecting and talking about them a little bit more open. It can all be really useful things, but sometimes because of past trauma, past experience, it may be that we just need an extra bit of extra support. So one of the things that is often talked about in mindfulness as a practice is that we need to exercise a bit of guardianship over ourselves. It might be that tapping into our emotions is not the best thing for us at the moment, or if we do, we need some professional support around it. So whilst this topic today is talking about emotions and getting an understanding of them and framing them in a way that I think could be really positive and helpful, it's also useful that in developing that sense of emotional fearlessness, it's kind of the way I like to frame it sometimes. You may need a little bit of support and help. Certainly some practices can help us with that, like meditation, mindfulness practice, journaling and reflective practice. Talking to somebody loved one a bit more openly about it, developing our articulation and language for emotion. But anyway, that's my two pedophiles this week. We're talking about emotions with Gary. Great interview and hopefully you get a lot to take away from it. But I guess that question is how are you with your emotions? How comfortable are you in the presence of your emotions? And what work may there be there that could have a knock on benefit and experiencing the richness of emotions, but also in helping you manage them in a positive way? To stay on track. To get on track and stay on track and stay on track with those goals, the things that really matter to you. So anyway, I hope you enjoy the interview. Let me know any thoughts or questions at Dave@restlessmidlife.com, but take care for now. Hi Gary, how are you doing? It's great to have you along on the podcast. I've already explained to the listeners what are the key reasons why I've asked you want to share your expertise? Do you want to tell the listeners a bit about yourself, your background and what your work and focuses?

[05:05] Gary: Yeah, I'd love to and thanks for having me on, David. It's a joy to join you again and to share some like minded thoughts. I'm really excited about chatting further and just getting to know things on your side as well as share some ideas together. So, a little bit about me. Well, I'm a training and development specialist for just over 30 years and approaching 20 years as a specialism around emotional intelligence, and that involved coaching with leaders, senior leadership teams, master classes, talks, conferences. So quite a wide variety really. And we also specialize in working with coaches, consultants who want to use emotional intelligence and the EQI assessment set of tools with their own client base so we can certify individuals who want to get going with that. How did I get into that? Well, part of the fact was that I grew up in a very emotionally dysfunctional family and had a career in engineering, a short career at the start of my career in engineering. And that's not renowned for its emotional intelligence and it's sort of vulnerability and open sharing. When I got married and around the same time was looking at emotional intelligence, it was a real personal learning journey. So I've learned a huge amount and it's a real joy to share that with other people and see how it can bring value for them individually or in their team, in their family often and also organizationally. So is that enough about me?

[06:54] Dave: That's great. We'll no doubt digging dig deeper as we go. But yeah, it's a good grounded because I think the key thing is if we start from what does emotional intelligence actually mean, I think that's a good place because many of us, many listeners have probably come across it, the experience within the workplace perhaps and what have you. And I guess from the podcast perspective, from a listener perspective, the restless midlife, how does that relate to me? For me, the emotional connections and connecting with my own emotions in a more positive way is my ongoing work at the moment I can think through my emotions but actually managing and experiencing emotions in that more visceral way for one of the better word is the work of me at the moment, if you like. So I guess it's just tapping into that and how does it relate to our personal life, alcohol, et cetera. So going back though, what is emotional intelligence?

[07:49] Gary: Well, you could look at the definitions you can read. I mean, there's huge amounts of books that are available on it now. I would boil it down into everyday behavior. It's about how we show up in our self awareness. It's about our confidence. Our motivations is about how I share things that are important for me, how I assert what's important. It is about how we work into personally empathy is a key component in there as well. But emotional intelligence also is about decision making and how we cope in life, how we manage the stresses that life chucks at us. And it is about everyday behavior and I think because it's got this kind of academic title of emotional intelligence, I think, and when you look at the definition, it can sound quite academic, but it is about that how am I showing up today? And I think adding a little thought onto that, that you are sort of talking about there, Dave, around the emotional functioning bit. Quite often when I'm working with leaders. They think they're thinking beings who feel sometimes and of course the truth is we're emotional beings. We're human beings who feel and we think and in fact those two elements are intrinsically intertwined so when we think something we actually feel something at the same time and vice versa when we're feeling something there's thinking that goes with that but we often separate them out and say well I'm just doing a task today and there's no feeling in that. There's no emotional influence on that but of course if I've had around with my darling beloved in the morning it's going to affect my focus. How I approach things. So I think that's the two ways that I would describe it every day strength and thinking and feeling together.

[09:48] Dave: I like the way you phrase that because I can resonate in that I think corping through life we all have our experiences and upbringing and I've talked about mine in the past but as a result of childhood experiences. Upbringing. Feelings of low self esteem. That kind of thing you adapt and learn ways of coping and getting through and sometimes those coping they help you get through but they're not necessarily the most sustainably or positive or really they're not necessarily going to make you happy to help you survive in that sense and for me it was also about shutting down. Shutting out. Closing down the emotional side so as a result becoming very detached and I don't mean that in a psychopathic or that kind of a way but being very skilled I don't know if that's the right word at keeping that down and rationalizing thinking through and operating from the thinking side of things and not realize you're absolutely right that the emotions are still happening and going on but they're kind of almost separate in a container. It's a difficult way to conceptualize it but I recognize that I guess when you talk about leaders and thinking and they feel occasionally in terms of the emotional intelligence is that what the intelligence side is about? It's about tapping into that awareness around that all yeah it is.

[11:16] Gary: So emotional self awareness is a key component with emotional intelligence and I think for any human, self awareness is a lifelong journey that we never get to the end of I'm learning a huge amount at the minute and loving it and the emotional self awareness bit is awareness of what's going on for me, what am I feeling, why am I feeling it, what influences it? Having there can be an element of managing it but there's certainly we shouldn't be suppressing it or excluding it or ignoring it because we can't really it will manifest itself either later in a more explosive or reactive way which we all experience we get home after a busy day. Somebody says something very simple to us and we blow up at them and we might not have that awareness of actually I felt a lot of stuff today. And I've not thought through any of those elements. So I think that awareness element is really important. And of course, for any of us, if we're not aware of what's going on for us, then we're going to be less able to tune into and be aware of what's going on for others. So empathy becomes a problem. How I care and consider others becomes less functioning. And therefore I might not be caring and considering and might handle people more roughly. And we do see that a lot with leaders with that. But the other side of it for humans is that of course, a lot of people haven't had the upbringing that I was talking about where I was emotionally dysfunctional. And they are emotionally functional, so they can read what's going on for others. And if you can't read what's going on for you and others can, well, that puts us at a disadvantage because not in a manipulative way, but they can see that clearly something isn't right. And if I'm not managing or processing that in a good way, that often doesn't lead to great interactions. And we all know what that experience can be like, especially in home life, I think in this busy world, high demand world that we live in, I think that's where the brunt of our emotional functioning has its impact often.

[13:40] Dave: Yeah, and you mentioned like after a bad day and you come home and it can spill out and whatever. And I think there's also not just the biodiver, but there's the cumulative effect over time. I'm speaking of sort of experience in terms of my policing background. Emotions were not something you talked about or even acknowledged. You'd finish if you had a bad shift.

[14:01] Gary: You'd either pop to the pub, have.

[14:03] Dave: A few beers, laugh about it. I mean, you don't me wrong. I think humor has its place, but it can also be masking a lot. But you don't process necessarily in a way because it's not even treated. It's just pushed out the way and you kind of move on. And I think that cumulative effect of these things building up one process can start to add the pressure inside over time. So you feel like you're dealing with it, you feel like you manage it. It's okay, I'm fine. I'll move on and do it's there. It's done. But actually it's not.

[14:40] Gary: And there's growing evidence and science around this. There's a lot we can read and research on it. One of our clients actually is Gloucester Police and they have a very new and updated way that they're developing the leadership within the organization. And it's called supportive leadership. And they're engaging with the human element, the health and wellbeing and emotional intelligence in there as well. Because you're right, especially in that context where it can be emotionally very demanding, although it has to be almost separated out because of the demand of the situation. But in any walk of life. We have those days and it is costly. And of course, we know long term, like you're talking about, David, your area of specialism is it starts to have a physiological impact on us. We know that the costly hormones that can build up in the body that can eventually make us ill. Yeah, in a serious way. So when we talk about health and well being and looking after ourselves, I think emotional intelligence plays into that as well.

[15:57] Dave: Yeah, I think you're right because there is the mind body link and there was a time when that was scoffed up, but now it's proven that just the feedback loops and what have you within our physiology and psychology, emotional all, that kind of thing. And I think one of the things that I find is and you're right, it's not just particular professions might be good examples to illustrate a point, but this is a human thing that we can many of us can operate as if our body is simply a vehicle for shift, getting our head about, our brain about to meet or to the job or whatever. And actually we're more than that. We're a physical, emotional, psychological creature and we have to honor that. But it's easy to see. And I think this is where from the restless midlife, the midlife point of view is that for many of us, we have that upbringing. We're getting through those late teens, early 20s, we started moving the we've crafted a life based on coping strategies, some of them positive, some of them not so positive. But we've got through and we've lived almost with that emotional side. This is not everybody, but I think it's a significant portion. The emotional side is on hold because I need to build this life that we have been led to believe is the right way to build a career, business, family, whatever. And we forget that there is a key and important part, not just our desires and goals, but our emotional health and well being in there and almost park that because we'll sort that out when we get there. And I think there's a point where you get in that midlife where suddenly you turn around and go, hang on a minute, is this sick question. But also it seems to me that the emotions of what starts that journey, the signaling, the uncomfortable feelings that surface something.

[17:48] Gary: I absolutely get what you're describing, that Dave and I would use this metaphor, this image to articulate, I think, what you're talking about. I often use it in the talks and some of the work that I do. And I remember one day and I was traveling to London on the train and like most people, when you're traveling to London, your head's down, you're taking the 2 hours that you've got spare to work and you're just busy. And when you look up in the carriage, there's just this life going by in the peripheral of your vision. But then at the end of the day, when you're traveling home, I often take a moment and just look out the window and suddenly you're inspired or awe struck by the beauty of the British countryside. And I'm probably, like a lot of people, quite noisy. When you're going through a town, you're looking in people's guns going, oh, that looks an interesting place to be. And I think that's a good metaphor for how life can be. We're on this track, we've got this idea, and life can be really passing us by, but practicing not only emotional intelligence, mindfulness, as you've talked about our whole being, being present, we should be turning to look at the view much more, turning to look and being present with the people that we work with because that emotional connection is what makes us tick. But it also tops us up. We work in County Durham with the Future Business Magnets Program, which is a program for school kids, and they've done a digital version of it this year. And I was chatting with one of the organizers today, and they've done most of the program digitally, and they wanted to do an award ceremony, and they weren't sure about offering it out to them in case the schools weren't sure about coming back together. And they almost pulled their arms off. We want to be back together. We want to be back interacting. We need that space of creativity and wonder. And I think your work, which I think is absolutely vital, even more so in today's environment because we've all been working so hard.

[20:12] Dave: Yeah, and I love that visual of the train, because you're right, because you can be stored down, head down, doing and less of the being that at least you're being a human being rather than human being. But I think is this where the emotions are potentially and I don't want to diminish them in their value and importance, but they're also signal, look out the window, notice or pay attention to this, or this is an issue, this is something you really want or don't want. That's one of the ways I tried for me to reframe emotions, to start to get that connection back with them. Any thoughts on that?

[20:56] Gary: Yeah, I completely resonate with what you're describing there. And this is where we're often less practiced. So we are better at the doing that, aren't we? All of us are. We spend hours practicing the task, what we've got to do, and all the data that goes with that research, reports, books, whatever it is, and we gather that knowledge and information, and we get the understanding and we work hard with that. Where we're less practiced is on the human data. The emotional function, the physiological, the spiritual, all of those elements. And that's where emotional intelligence and our emotional functioning lives. I think you're right. Emotions are not just signals, Dave. They indicate something. So they might be indicating that somebody in this meeting is using very threatening language and I'm feeling not just uncomfortable, but really distressed about this situation. How do I deal with it, how do I cope with that? Firstly, I've got to work through what does that actually mean for me? And then work out, do I need to articulate this to the other person and open up a conversation? Or do I stay closed, live with that threat, and that damages that trust relationship? And so using that human data is hugely important. And I think the other thing, if you want to go even deeper davis it indicates something, it signals something, but there's also deep messages of life. If we think about those that we love the most, what we talk about is our feeling of love, that deep resonance that really shifts us. My kids are now 21 and 18. My daughter loves watching the kid videos of when she was like five, six, seven. Well, they moved me so much now because I'm so emotionally connected to them. But we can miss that if we're not careful, that human information can be missed.

[23:04] Dave: Yeah, there's a couple of things.

[23:10] Gary: That.

[23:10] Dave: Have hit us there and I think to pick them out, firstly, I'll deal with the smaller things, hopefully discreet, and then get on to that bigger picture that you're talking about there, because I think that's really important. But you talk about that feeling in the meeting and I think that you can draw that out to lots of experiences and maybe people can resonate with this, that thing where somebody said something and you haven't responded, you haven't dealt with it and you wish you had and you carry it around. This is the challenge, because if you are a touch and you kind of convince yourself, rush like yourself, it doesn't matter, it's not important, et cetera, it's still there. And weeks later I joke about this when I do some other deal with difficult people or interaction stuff. Are you the kind of person who, three weeks later, think of the perfect response for that situation? Because I'm definitely more of that, more less reactive in that sense. But then you carry it around and that's where the damage and the corrosion particularly. So being a little bit more aware, and I'll ask about approaches or practices to help with that, in due course, be a little bit more work, can help you tap in so that you can get more in the moment to respond. You said about noticing things, the emotions, the deeper thing. I think this resonates with midlife as well, because there's this dawning. You look back at photographs and you think, I can remember that. And it brings a lovely smile and feeling to you, but it was like I missed it at the time sometimes. And then you start thinking, hang on a minute, how many? There's more years behind me than in front. That's a real awakened. I think for many of us, when we start thinking, if I carry on this way, I'm going to sleepwalk through the rest of it. And I think emotions is almost awakening. It's an awakening to your emotions, but perhaps you put on hold for too long.

[24:54] Gary: Yeah, I think all too quickly we compartmentalize them. And really I liked what you said earlier, Dave, about noticing. I think practicing noticing is really important now. Emotions and feeling is passing information. So it's almost like a sky changes all the time. I mean, goodness, aren't we experiencing that in the UK in June? We're supposed to have a flaming June. And the other day it was like ten degrees, it was gray and overcast. Then the sun comes out and that's like our emotions, they're passing through sometimes really inside us and sometimes near us. So it depends on how deep we're feeling them, but it's about how we practice noticing them. And what does that mean? And I think just to build on what you were saying about that turning something over in your head, playing in those scenarios where we felt attacked or we felt distressed about a situation, whether it's a meeting or a one to one or something our boss said to us, or something we might have said to a colleague that we think might have landed wrong. And we play those scenarios over and over again, different styles, but what we sometimes forget to recognize is that we are emotionally attached to those scenarios. So we can work ourselves into a dark place just thinking about that stuff. And that can be really costly on a long term side.

[26:31] Dave: Yeah, because I suppose thinking with my stress head on, if you like, is that, as you mentioned before, the physiological responses, it takes energy, so you're carrying it, and that takes effort and energy, the stress hormones, et cetera, are there because it takes effort to just carry it around, because you're constantly revisiting ruminating, denying it, pushing it down. That still takes a lot of effort. It's exhausting.

[27:00] Gary: Well, we start having emotional shields like you were talking before, about humor. Humor can be a great stress relief. As you know. You've got massive experience in that area. And often if I'm feeling a bit weighed down, I will actually play some comedy like Billy Connolly, just to lift the whole spirit and the countenance. But the other side of emotional shields are they can actually shield us from what we should be dealing with, so we can use it as a shield. So sarcasm is another good shield that we see in everyday life, where we'll have a little go at somebody in a humorous way and actually the other person feels it as a barbed comment.

[27:43] Dave: Yeah.

[27:44] Gary: And it's not healthy, but it does cost us a lot emotionally. Absolutely.

[27:49] Dave: Yeah. I like the idea of emotional shields. Is that something that's within the emotional intelligence sort of lexicon, if you like one better. They can be useful, but also problematic. What?

[28:03] Gary: It's probably come out of some of the work that we've done over the years and I've done in our coaching work, that when we're building self awareness, I think there are personas that we might adopt. So sometimes I might be different at work and I might be at home a much freer and easier, more love and trust relationships. That means that I let myself go a bit more. So sometimes I'm a bit harsher at home, then I might be a bit more careful politically correct. We're tampering around in this environment where we don't want to hurt people's feelings and of course we don't want to, but we are tough beings and we should be able to kind of have that bit of debate and give and take and things like that. But we do dance around it a little bit, but because of these personas, we end up starting to shield ourselves with these personas. So I put my work face on. Like if I'm meeting a new client for the first time, I'll actually put my best suit on. You know, we're chatting today, I'm in jeans, but how brave am I to be? That being me showing up as me to show up with a new client just in jeans. Yeah, so those kind of things. So I think we do shield a lot. Yeah.

[29:32] Dave: And I think the necessary that's what we do in life, different aspects of life require different roles that we play. Dad, brother, son, all these things. But it's knowing that that's what we're doing. And hopefully they don't distance too much from the true you. Hopefully there's over that, but let's be right, there can be a bit of distance and I can recognize that. One of the things I used to do was obviously put my uniform on for the police. But it wasn't just putting the uniform physically and I was putting it on psychologically. The challenge was times the real me. I didn't even know who the real me was. But the real me differed from the facade or that uniform. But because you have to play it, you end up stretching into it and then you might physically take the uniform off at the end of the shift, but you psychologically keeping it on in terms of you're still in that mold. Because I'm using air quartz here, it's easier because there's a detachment. So you can almost get lost in your shield. Don't forget, if you're finding that your health has taken a backseat whilst you work to achieve greatness in other areas of your life, the Reshape Academy, my coaching and programs are here to help you continue to achieve that success with, and not at the expense of your health. Find out more at Midlife Reshape.com. I think you're right.

[30:59] Gary: And humans by default, we are creatures of comfort. We talk about embracing change, but in. My experience, people who really embrace change, they're rarer beings. Most of us like we like what we like and we know what we like. And so when that starts to get shifted or there's risk or threat or aversion or any of those things, those strong feelings, sometimes if we're not practiced at dealing with them, then we don't manage them very effectively and they disrupt us. So rather than having what we would describe as, forgive the long word, the sinusoidal curve, which is that smooth flow that everyone talks about, we end up with it. It's like a roller coaster. It's like whoa. And then that wasn't good, where are we going now? And it becomes emotionally draining. I mean, you'll experience it in your coaching work. At the end of the day, it's conversation and listening and exploring things. But I bet after two or three coaching sessions, you are emotionally hired.

[32:13] Dave: The cost, that's the impact of real connection, isn't it? Yeah, and I think this is where, as you see, you can go for the easier option, which you talk about the role cost is try to just flatten it out. And I think that's where in the past that's been a corporate rate just dismissed and flatten out the emotion from that keel. But that takes a lot of effort and denial and alcohol and hard work and all of these things that we use to cover it over. So I think you're right, but real connection takes effort, but it's where you also get the reward, that sense of fulfillment and all of that emotional payback as well. I guess if I was to pause, let's say a client, a figurative client, somebody who's in their 40s who's kind of just starting to reconnect realize there's something unfulfilled, there's a scratch to it, an itch to scratch, whichever way they know that their life, yeah, they're doing okay, they've got the profession, the family and all that, but they just know there's something missing. They want to improve their health so get back on that health train and also startups you go. But they know that there's also whenever they think about it, the emotions stir in terms of emotional management, you talk about awareness being a bit and then noticing what's the next stage in terms of managing that? Because we need to obviously more positively managed in order to get through the other side as well, I guess.

[33:41] Gary: Yeah, I think one of the key things that we've talked about already is this practice noticing. So we set at the start, we've got thinking and we've got feeling in there they actually happen all at the same time, but we're often focused towards or only interested in or more practice with the thinking and the doing bit. So when you think something, practice having that reflection around, well, what am I feeling with this thinking? And starting to engage with the language around emotions? I remember in my own research that there are over 3000 emotional descriptors in the English language, right? Yeah, I know. It blew me away as well. And when I work with individuals and leaders in developing their artificial intelligence, I'll give them two sides of a four. I've not counted them up, but it's probably 100 or 150. And I'll say, look, just circle the ones that you either recognize or you resonate with and think that you experience. And I can see them ten minutes later. They've looked through this list and they've only circled ten emotions. So when we think about our language of emotions, we're often quite narrow and shallow in our ability to work with it. Just practice noticing is one thing. And the second thing I would add in is around when we think about emotional intelligence, it's made up of a number of behaviors. So self regard, assertiveness, empathy. I've mentioned a few there. I encourage people to get to know those behaviors like they know a close friend. So when I see a friend in the distance, I actually recognize them over there. I can often recognize them just from the back of them. I don't even need to see their face. I know what they look like when they stand or when they walk. And then if I walk alongside them. I know in my relationship, when it's a very good relationship or when something isn't right, I feel it. But do we know our behavior at that level? What it's called, what it looks like, what it feels like and am I journeying with it so that I'm getting to know it like a friend? And so I think that's a key element in developing emotional intelligence.

[36:12] Dave: I love that. So I'm kind of framing this in this figurative client or essentially case, whatever. And I think so it's getting to know how what avoidance might be behavior. I know there's something, but I'm just not wanting to confront it. So the feelings are but you're not necessarily connect with the feeling. You're connecting with the behavior. Like actually I'm avoiding or I'm drinking alcohol to numb the experience or flatten the emotion or block out time if it's dread or anxiety. So you're seeing those behaviors and avoid one example, I guess, but like that sense of I can't face that there's a feeling underneath, get to know it more closely, the behavior. We start to sense that. Is that what?

[37:01] Gary: Yeah, definitely. And the most overused word, I think, when we look at the work scenarios that we're involved with is frustrated. I'm frustrated about that. And for me it's the most meaningless emotional descriptor because my frustration changes moment by moment. If I go and pay £3 for a coffee and it's not frothy in the right way, I'm frustrated. Or if I get caught up on the roundabout on the way home, that really frustrates me. But actually those are two very different emotional states. So I'm not being clear in what's going on for me and if I'm going to express that then I'm not going to be clear with others if I just use the word frustrated and I liked what you said earlier, Dave, about the flat line I think if we have a flat line life then we're not really getting the very most out of life. Life is ups and downs. It is about how we cope with that. We do numb stuff with things like alcohol or overwork or not engaging with some of these things because they feel hard or difficult but when we start to practice that stuff and you'll see this in your work when somebody engages with that for instance. Health and well being and they start to get physically better. They feel better. They're brighter. It's a whole different experience yeah and.

[38:29] Dave: Getting comfortable with the emotions because it strikes me that avoidance is a behavior or irritability being snappy at. Partner.

[38:41] Gary: Friend.

[38:41] Dave: Colleague. Whatever those behaviors are symptoms of the underlying feeling that we're not addressing and actually I'm kind of put myself in my place but also when I've talked to people there's a fear of confronting the actual uncomfortable or even painful emotion but actually being aware and getting to know it. That's where that notice it can be useful but then it brings to mindfulness approach of non judgmental don't be judgmental about the emotion, just be present with it type of thing. Is there anything that emotional intelligence can share about that being comfortable with emotions?

[39:16] Gary: Well, I think as we practice it we learn to observe them, allow space for them so that they're not directing us because emotions aren't there to lead us somewhere. It's information that we need to use. I like what doctor Susan David says in her book around emotional agility she says that emotions are not directives but it is information so we need to use that information. And you've used the word fear there well that has to be for humans that's the ultimate scary emotion, isn't it? Fear? And when I ask a room full of leaders who's experienced fear today, very rarely people put their hands up. But if I describe other elements of fear like anxiety, feeling some distress, feeling uncomfortable about something, feel a bit unnerved, then all the hands in the room go up yeah, I've experienced that well, you've experienced fear. Some of these emotions can trigger and spike us but if we're not able to create some space to kind of go okay, what's going on for me here? Then we end up being led by the emotion. We all know that when we're led emotionally and we're not working with it, it can be really costly. That's when we say the stuff that we regret, it's when we hurt people the most, it's when we do the.

[40:53] Dave: Daft stuff yeah you mentioned Susan David's work emotional agility and I think she conceptualized the way we respond to emotions. There's two kinds of ways. The dam and just the fast flow and overwhelming river and I love that as a bit of visual because sometimes we're a butler or some of us more prone to bottle it up or damaged up and others we get swept away with it and it depends. We can be either of those at any time but I think that's the challenge. Isn't it? Because they are often our defaults if we've learned through life because of bringing that emotions aren't a good thing, that they're a sign of weakness or that the only way you get what you want is by getting angry or whatever and I think those are where we develop these coping strategies or communication strategies that just become problematic later on.

[41:42] Gary: Yeah. Well. The work that we both do will use the conscious competence ladder and I like the simplest metaphors and it's a bit like learning to drive my son's learning to drive at the moment he's 18 so we've done the whole kangaroo car it's a bit scary as a parent when you actually sat there and you haven't got pedals to be able to control that but anyway. You get past that but then we move on from unconscious incompetence to then conscious incompetence and we move through that journey and it's the same with emotional intelligence at the start we're clunky. It doesn't quite work but as we work with it we start to get more fluent with how that works to the point where it actually moves. In some of the work that I described from an outside theoretical understanding I understand what this topic is and this concept is to actually come inside and I'm living and breathing it and it's enriching my life. I mean some of the leaders that I work with. I have the privilege of journeying with them sometimes for months. Sometimes a year sometimes we might have a gap and pick up later and regularly the feedback they give me is this has helped my home life more than it has helped my work life because I'm showing up better. I'm living it better yeah.

[43:13] Dave: It's an underappreciated aspect of it. I love that idea that driving you don't know that you don't know and then you become aware that you don't know then you start to get better. You start a clungy. You get better at it. You get that confidence but then you get unconsciously competent which is that you drive the car without even thinking about it but eventually you embody it and get that connection with your emotions. If we switch to that you get more comfortable and becomes more natural and I would say hands up. I'm still at work in progress because of some of the hard ingrained processes so I guess really to think about just some of the takeaways then for this because I'm conscious of time but we could dive into this for hours more because I love this topic but you mentioned things like obviously awareness and then noticing. Observing and getting in the habit of just observing the emotion and allowing some space for it. Because I think that's important, isn't it? Because the drive, particularly a fight or flight kicks in is to respond, to push it down, flight order to go with it.

[44:16] Gary: Yeah.

[44:18] Dave: Create some space in your coaching and your work, are there any other approaches that perhaps the listeners can pick up almost in a self coaching way just to play with? I like to think about playing with these concepts of tools or anything.

[44:32] Gary: Yeah, I think when you talk about the reactive bit, which we all experience and nobody escapes it I don't escape it. I talk about my journey with emotional intelligence as being my journey with my foot shaped mouth. I started with a size eleven and I'm on about a size four or five, so I can still have some impact, but it's not a size eleven.

[44:56] Dave: Yeah.

[44:58] Gary: We'Re all on that journey, but that reactive element in emotional intelligence terms is called impulse control and we're learning a lot about that. It's triggered by the amygdala, which is an element of our neurological functioning and people will have heard and read about that on occasion. So it is an emotional strike spike in that essence. So taking some time to be able to observe and create space. You know, that great quote, but that's attributed to Victor Frankel. But nobody knows that he actually written it. He might have said it, but it's not in his writing. And that's between stimulus and our response. There is space. But what we're not very good at is occupying the space and allowing that time for it. Here's the other spin on that, Dave we're not very tolerant at letting other people be in that space. We want to fix it. So when we're not in a good place, we want to sort it out now. Certainly I do. And I'm forever pushing. People say let's talk about this, let's get it sorted. But you know what? Sometimes we've got to give some time for people to occupy that space and practice being in that space. I think in this high demand we need it now, we want it now. Society, this is an area we don't practice very much. And I don't know about you, but when I think about the people I would call more seasoned in life, we've got a bit more gray hair, we might be thinning at the edges. I don't want to say the older like me, but you know what I'm talking about here. But when I meet people like that, they're not pushing so hard. Often they're more relaxed about things. They create space, they want to talk about it. And their life experience brings that wisdom with them that they often trust their gut feel because that's emotional functioning. I think there's a lot of opportunity in there that's interesting.

[47:10] Dave: The slowing down it's ironic, isn't it? I think this is something that as midlife as you get to a point where you start, there's almost a panicky feeling. Sometimes they think, oh my God, how many years have I wasted? I've got to sort it out. But if you go on the journey, you actually learn that the opposite, the slowing down and allowing is actually the antidotes. But that is a practice, as you say. It's a skill, it's something to learn. And you talk about that space. One of the things I've learned as a coach, it was the hardest thing. It's just to shut up, basically. Sure. But I'm very much I believe in this narrative, caution, letting people tell their stories, but then work through it, articulate themselves almost self coach. If you talk about so Nancy Klein's work a book, Time to Think, the bits where you just allow people to think and slow things down but just air it themselves or process it is a gift as a course or something, but we can give that to ourselves. We're talking about observing, we're talking about nodicing, we're talking about that space. But also allowing you what spring to mind was the phrase it's okay to not have the answer for sure. You know what I mean? It's okay to not have an immediate idea solution. Because I think sometimes the default, especially I grew through policing, you get there sorted, fix it, move it, get it sort of detective, whatever, move on, and that becomes your default. We need to fix it. There's a problem here, let's sort it. And actually, yes, that works in some circumstances, but I would argue not in these key crucible type moments in life where you start thinking, hang on a minute, what do I really want? It's okay to not know. Yeah. And be okay not knowing for a while if you want.

[48:55] Gary: But that thinking that you're describing there, we're going to feel strongly about that. And it's that we've got to be engaged with, because to create that space, we've got to allow the weather of our emotion to be floating by, be observational, be using that information, but not directed by it. And it does take a little bit of practice. And I think going back to that image of getting to know your emotional intelligence behavior like a friend, if something isn't right, you feel it, don't you? You feel that it's not right. And that's when I think you should or I think I try and practice occupying that space a bit more. So is it about me? What's going on for me? Is it about what's going on for others? Is it what's going on in the room? What's going on in the situation? And all too quickly, I think that's an absolute gold nugget. I love what you were describing there, Dave, about just getting into that space. Yeah.

[50:00] Dave: See, the questions you said there were none of those few questions. There were about, how do I fix this?

[50:05] Gary: It's about, is it?

[50:06] Dave: What is it? And I think that's a space that many of us can feel uncomfortable in. But that's where the practice comes, isn't it? The practice around. We're talking about potentially making some really big decisions in life. Not necessarily things that took the grenade into life and you start again, but actually big, significant shifts. I'm going to prioritize my health or, you know what, I'm working far too hard, I'm going to have to make a few decisions. You can immediately come up with three or four answers, but if you haven't given yourself proper space just to sit with it, there might be something else there. Yeah, that's the power of it. Practice around that, I think, is a really important bit because I like the emotions, their information, their data. They're giving you something, but then you need to just sift through, work it out, allow that time to see rather than responding straight away. For the midlife who's in that position, perhaps feeling a bit panic because it can feel like the sort of damocles started. You know what? There is a moment, I think I spoke to so many people now and myself, where you suddenly think, 03:00 in the morning, my God, what am I doing? And they can suddenly feel oppressive and very I've got to sort this out, actually. Just acknowledging that that's there could be a real opportunity.

[51:25] Gary: I think it's absolutely massive. Some of us would fear to go into that opportunity and that's what creates the barrier. I'm not going to go there. That's too hard, that's too difficult. But I think alongside what you're describing there as well, Dave, when we talk about emotional intelligence, it's about we want to be our best self and to be our best self, we've got to look after me, we've got to be recovered, we've got to be refreshed. So, you know, sleep is important for that. But also, sometimes just listening to a song in the car and singing at the top of your voice, or listening to Billy conley an image that sticks with me is when he wore his banana boots and it makes you laugh so hard. It's all of that and that's the richness of life. And if we're not careful, when we do hit those kind of rocky moments of midlife challenge and distress, we need that refresh and that inspiration again to get us back on track sometimes.

[52:42] Dave: Yeah, I think that's a great thought, because you're right, emotions can be sweet, they can be joyful, it can be all of those things. And on the opposite, it could be painful. There's lots there. But even in that, there's something about just the life, the richness of life. I flew back from America a few weeks ago because we've been to Disney for our delayed honeymoon, and on the way back, I get putting on these films that are in 03:00 at UK time or whatever time it was over there. It was a film called Collateral Beauty and it was a bit cheesy. But the premise I won't give away the film if anybody wants to watch it. But the premise is the Collateral Beauty is when you're going through the toughest of times. Don't forget to pay attention and notice the beauty that just seems to be happening as a result of and that's a very difficult thing. Depending on the challenges. But I think there's something in that, that there's a richness to life and we're missing something. If we don't connect with the emotional, don't appreciate, become aware of them, start to develop that intelligence, which is the phrase, I think, for all of that, isn't it? Just start to connect with them. They're not just an inconvenient, they ought to be brought out. When the good times are there, they're there for they add the color of the richness to it.

[53:51] Gary: They do. I think you're right. And it is about being intelligent with those emotions, having understanding, having an awareness, using that. But truthfully, there are no negative emotions. I know we label them like that. I would describe that as we're understanding a new language. We clunk around it a little bit, but really, some people would say, well, grief, well, that's a very negative emotion. Well, actually, grief can be filled with love and joy, even though it's got pain in it. And you're right, even in those really tough moments that we experience in life, they can be life enriching. For me, grief helps me appreciate, actually what I've got more now when I know that I've lost somebody that's dear and a loved one.

[54:47] Dave: Yeah, you're right. This is the reason why I asked you on, just to explore this, because it's something that it's been a journey for the last decade or so, but I'm only really getting aggressive and I think really just connecting with the emotions is important how to do it. So that emotion times, that awareness, that observation, I think, is really a powerful way. And it's practice, it's practice with it and not being perfect or expecting perfect about it, it's messy, it's all of those things, but get connected with them. So I love that. So what I do want to do, Gary, because I know you're working, obviously you got your work, but you're also working on a book at the moment. So you want to just what you're doing at the moment in terms of that and what yeah.

[55:27] Gary: Thank you, Dave. So the book is called EQ Influence. And EQ is our measure of emotional intelligence. The assessment that we use is called the EQI. It's the global gold standard as far as assessing and measuring our emotional intelligence, to use it for personal and professional development. So the EQ bit and then influence about how does it influence me, how do I use it to influence others? It's that whole influence piece working a lot with leaders. It's leadership behavior that unlocks extraordinary performance because leaders that engage with emotional intelligence often achieve significantly more those that score and emotional intelligence and the global studies that have been done over the last 20 years in pretty much every study, high EQ leaders outperform low EQ leaders all the time, pretty much everything. So that's the focus. But I'm hoping it's going to be the kind of book that pretty much anyone could pick up and get some value from because Emotional Intelligence is about everyday awareness about what's going on for us and how we use that.

[56:39] Dave: Yeah, brilliant. Well, what we'll do, Gary, is obviously share some insurers links, et cetera. Obviously the books in the process of being written, so it's not there yet, but keep us posted because I get you back on and just have a chat about because I love these conversations where we can really get into it. I think the beauty of this is that something that we've probably heard or many people put emotional intelligence as a thing and unless you've been on a course or course dinner, you don't necessarily see what does that actually mean to me as just a human being? That's where the power is, it's not just a label or a particular brand or something, it's actually an approach to connecting with it's probably one of the more important parts of our life, isn't it? Now here we are. So thank you very much, Gary. It's really great to catch up and share our thoughts on this and your particular experiences and tips and tactics. So thanks very much.

[57:31] Gary: Absolute joy. Thank you.

[57:33] Dave: Cheers, Gary. Thank you. And just for listeners, as I said, you find all links and notes, etc and show notes, hop over to Restless Midlife.com and you will find all of that and drop us any feedback or thoughts or questions, whether for me or Gary at David Russellsmidlifer.com. Take care for now. Thank you for listening. You'll find all show notes, links and resources mentioned at midlifereshape. Compodcast and it will mean so much if you could spread the word to your fellow Restless Midlifers, share the show and links and if you aren't already subscribe to the show in your podcast feed of choice. And one more thing, if you enjoy the show, it would be great if you could read it by visiting midlifereeshape. Comreview. It would mean so much and I may even give you a shout out in return. And a quick final thanks to production assistant Karen North of North Via and for the mutual music which is called Silverstar by the awesome Logan Nicholson of Musicfamakers@musicfamakers.com. Take care for now and don't forget, you really can reshape your midlife health and rekindle that spirit of adventure. Bye.

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