Getting Clear About the Goal and What Matters - interview with Dr Elaine Cox

The Restless Midlifer : Episode 72

In this episode Dave poses a challenge - as well as identifying the things you don't like or want and working to do less of them, what about the ok stuff? The things that you like doing or experiencing but don't love? Do they crowd out your REAL goals - the things you REALLY REALLY want to achieve? If so, what about removing some of the 'likes' too? Dave is joined by Dr Elaine Cox, Author, Academic and Founding Editor of the International Journal of Evidence Based Coaching & Mentoring. Dave and Elaine discuss how to get clear about our feelings and what they might be signalling when it comes to setting and achieving goals.

Dr Elaine Cox Author, Academic and Founding Editor of the International Journal of Evidence Based Coaching & Mentoring. Dr Elaine Cox is an honorary research fellow within the International Centre for Coaching and Mentoring Studies at Oxford Brookes University. She is an experienced researcher, author and editor and has a comprehensive knowledge of research approaches and methods and their application to coaching research. In addition to authoring books and research articles, Elaine is the founding editor of the International Journal of Evidence-Based Coaching and Mentoring https://radar.brookes.ac.uk/radar/s/ijebcm

Elaine has authored and edited a number of books on coaching:

Braver leaders in action: Personal and Professional Development for Principled Leadership, Mike McLaughlin and Elaine Cox (2022) Bingley, Yorks: Emerald. https://books.emeraldinsight.com/book/detail/braver-leaders-in-action/?k=9781803821788

'Coaching Understood' (2013), is her magnum opus - a scholarly exposition of how coaching works. Coaching Understood is published by Sage - http://www.uk.sagepub.com/books/Book235839 and has been heralded as a milestone in the coaching literature by Prof. Bob Garvey.

Elaine is also co-editor of 'The Complete Handbook of Coaching' with Tatiana Bachkirova and David Clutterbuck (first published 2009, second edition 2014, third edition 2018 and a 4th edition in preparation for 2023) - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B4YXC21/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb

Leadership Coaching: Developing Braver Leaders was written with Mike McLaughlin and is published by Routledge: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leadership-Coaching-Developing-braver-leaders-ebook/dp/B0130JP5RK

A follow-up to this book entitled 'Braver Leaders in Action' is being published by Emerald in 2022.

Elaine has also co-authored two books with Yossi Ives: 'Relationship Coaching: The theory and practice of coaching with singles, couples and parents' (2014) and 'Goal Focused Coaching' (2012)

Dave Algeo is a Restless Midlifer, searching for answers and adventure. His mission, should you choose to join him, is to seek out ways to get life back on his terms, heading in a more fulfilling direction and enhancing his health in the process. Dave is a writer, coach, and constantly curious person, striving to encourage others to live big - by identifying the small but significant things that can transform the life we are living. Join Dave as he explores how to regain the spirit of adventure and childlike curiosity whilst managing the "grown-up" responsibilities of life.

Dave's approach to making changes in life, health and direction, is rooted in his 'sprout sweater philosophy. Check out his 'Crackerjack' video here https://youtu.be/OZM4ObMSu6U to learn more about the basic metaphor. Check out episodes 30 and 31 to learn more about Dave's approach.

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Transcript (AI generated)

[00:03] Dave: The restless midlife of podcast. Get health, weight and life back on your terms. And welcome to episode 72 of The Restless Midlife. A podcast? And I have another interview today with a hero of mine, Dr. Elaine Cox, whose work I encountered when I was doing my Masters in Coaching a couple of years back. And Elaine has written a number of great books which are particularly useful for those of us in the professional mentoring and coaching who are seeking to sort of dig deeper and look at the academic rigor, if you like, of the profession and how we can see it as a profession rather than just a skill to develop. It is a skill to develop, but it's also something for me, a profession, it's something that I want to develop a really rich, deep understanding of. And that's where, amongst other books, Elaine's book Coaching understood a Pragmatic investigation into coaching. I think I've got the title right there. If my apologies, Elaine, it will be in the Shore notes. But the point of that, that provided a real rich framework for me to start to conceptualize and understand the coaching journey. Now, what does that have to do with yourself as a listener who may not be a coach and really you'd be more interested in achieving a goal or reaching a particular making a shift or a change in your life? Well, the interview itself is great and we explore some of the areas of topics. We don't go too deep in terms of the academia, if you like, the academic lack, which would give it kind of, I think, really ground and real. But we do talk about some of the key factors like starting to recognize the feelings and the things that start to prompt you to think there's something more to this is something I want to explore. What is it and how do I articulate that? How do I sort of turn that and interpret the feelings that I'm experiencing? That classic question, as I often see on these podcasts, is this it? Question midlife? We've turned around and goes, this is it. I've worked hard to get here and I don't feel fulfilled or what have you. That question will often surface as a feeling or emotion or something as a result of an experience that might jar us into that place. But then what do we do with it? Now, obviously, as a coach, I'm a big believer in receiving coach. I've certainly got my own coaches in different aspects and I certainly believe in the power of that. But I also think that there is a place for self coaching, self working through this and recognizing that these feelings are something that we're valid. We need to give them some space and some time to reflect and work out what do they mean and how do I take them forward in terms of moving towards a particular goal. So I think it's a great interview hopefully for just getting you to think about that and maybe reframe those moments and things like reflective practice the practices that I think can be really useful for any of us in whatever profession and whatever we're doing, seeking to achieve in life. Hopefully you'll enjoy the interview with Elaine in that and she shares a great number of things in that. The question I guess ties into this a little bit is one of the things I think is a challenge when we are starting to look at what we could do is that there is so many options, there are so many opportunities, so many things that we could do. I don't know about you, but I've got to a particular point in my life, I was about 35, 36, 37 thinking so much I want to do. And I felt a bit like the dog off up whenever there's a squirrel runs by, you're looking at one thing talking and then there's a squirrel and you're off and it was so many shiny objects and so many things that I wanted to do. And the realization was that whilst I might be able to do it all, I can't do it all at once. And how do I start to prioritize and focusing on that? So I guess my question to you is how do we sort that out of the things that you really want to do or the changes that you want to make or the goals. The experiences you want to have. The Be do have. The things that we want to have in life. To do in life. To just experience of those things. Which ones fly to the top as being the ones that really excite you. That you know your love or you've tried before and you love to do. Because I think the challenge to achieving the goals and the goals that really are meaningful to us is the clutter of the orchid goals, the things that Be County that would be fun. I'd like to do that. And often I think it isn't about always about oh, there is a place for deciding to not do the stuff I don't enjoy to stop doing that, to spend less time doing the stuff I just hate or really don't like doing. There is a key place for that in organizing our life, to sort of identify those. But I also think there's a place for working out what are the things that I like doing, but actually they're not the thing. And that can sometimes be the harder question, the harder challenge to sift away and make a decision to not do that.

[05:03] Elaine: Because I want to do it all.

[05:05] Dave: I want to achieve it all, I want to enjoy it all and be fulfilled. But sometimes we need to park the likes that. Yeah, I'd like to have a go with that. That'd be kind of that sounds fun. Park doors to focus on the things that really do grab us, that excite us and I'd be interested just if you do have any that sort of do jump out there what they might be because I think that is the chance. Yes, it might be easy to identify things you don't like doing and not so easy to have to stop doing them but that's one thing. But to sift out the likes we kind of like them so we might leave them in life but actually they might be worthy of pulling those down in order to focus and go for the real rich stuff. So that's my food for the lot this week. I hope you enjoyed the interview. Let me know any thoughts today about restlessmidlifer.com. Take care for now. You should get it. Hi there. Well welcome to another episode of The Restless Midlife a podcast and I'm delighted in this bonus interview episode to be joined by Elaine *** who is a bit of a hero of mine in terms of research and writing around the profession or the world of coaching and what I want to do. I'm really choked for my own sort of experience to be able to speak to you at Len but also just to share your midlife story and also some things that hopefully can be taken away. As for our listeners who are fellow Restless Midlife is looking to sort of shape and shift aspects of their life whether it's the health or career or business or what have you. So hi Elaine. Do you want to just say hi and tell us a little bit about yourself?

[06:30] Elaine: Hello David. Yes. Thanks for inviting me. This is fabulous. So yeah, I'm an academic and researcher and an author and I work with Oxford Brooks University. I've been involved with mentoring and coaching since 1995 and I did my doctoral thesis on aspects of mentoring. It was called mentors. Born or made right? That was a while ago now Brooks. Following that doctoral experience of my own I developed and validated the Ma in Coaching and Mentoring practice at Oxford Brooks and then the Doctor of Coaching and Mentoring program for them as well. So I've done a lot of lecturing and a lot of supporting of masters and doctoral students.

[07:17] Dave: Brilliant. Yeah.

[07:19] Elaine: I'll tell you a little bit about where I came from as well, shall I?

[07:23] Dave: Yeah.

[07:24] Elaine: Because I left school at 16 and my mum and my aunt thought it would be a good idea if I trained as a secretary. That's what I did, as I was told and I trained as a secretary and then I did some tempting work in a solicitor and I rather like that. So I became a legal secretary and I did that until I had children really and always enjoyed that aspect of being a secretary. So that was my early life. And then later on when I had an opportunity and I went on a short course and I heard about Access course and I thought I could do that. That sounds interesting. And I did the Access course and then I applied to go to Warwick University when I was 39.

[08:16] Dave: Right.

[08:17] Elaine: Yes. So I started my degree when I was 40.

[08:20] Dave: Wow. And again well, that's classic midlife story there, isn't it, really? You had one direction of travel and you decided to sort of, you know, the course itself, was it a particular topic? Because it obviously well, it found me.

[08:34] Elaine: Rather than I found it because I was putting down anything on the form that had English with it. Being Secretary English was something I knew, and I like literature, so I put down as my third choice on the form for Warwick Philosophy and Literature, and they were the only one that invited me for interviewing, so I had to go for an interview and I had to sit an exam, so that was a scary day. But they liked what I had to say. And the Philosophy department is very kind of open to ideas, so I liked that. I like their approach.

[09:23] Dave: So the Access program there and then moved on to I did the Access.

[09:28] Elaine: Program at the college in Bamboo.

[09:31] Dave: Right, okay. So that was what led yeah.

[09:34] Elaine: And then moved on to Warwick. I could have gone to Oxford Brooks at that time, but I didn't bounce yet, which is bizarre because I ended up working.

[09:46] Dave: Yeah. So in terms of it, what led you to sort of be looking at the Access program and then something was it a natural progression in the direction of your career, etc. Or was it something that you were just looking for something different?

[10:05] Elaine: I'd been through a divorce and met somebody else who was a graduate, but before that, even before that, when I was going through my divorce, I was doing a lot of reading and getting a lot of ideas from all over the place. I really got involved interested in reading different types of literature, I suppose. And my son said to me he was about 16 at the time, he was looking at courses and university possibilities, alan all topics and things, and he said, Mum, you want to go to university? And that always stays with me. I think, out of the mouths of babes, one day maybe I might do that. I was thinking maybe a short course.

[10:57] Dave: Or something and who you are.

[11:01] Elaine: But then I had the opportunity to go on a weekend course and they talked about the Access course as I said, and I didn't stop for ten years. Then I went from my degree. I did it full time in those days with the grant, and then I did my Master's part time, worked pretty much full time while I was doing the part time Masters, and then I did my PhD straight afterwards and that was part time. So before I was 50, I've got the PhD as well.

[11:40] Dave: Yeah.

[11:41] Elaine: I just didn't stop I got the bug good and proper.

[11:45] Dave: Yeah. It's interesting how life can chuck up sort of twist and turns that then can lead to and I guess this is one of the reasons fascinates me about the midlife journey, is that you have choices within that, don't you? Choices to just keep your head down, keep going, doing what you're doing, and that's fine, but sometimes you get those little opportunities that can lead to know what direction you are going to end up in but take the next step.

[12:10] Elaine: Yeah. Don't realize it at the time. When you look back, you can see those turning points.

[12:16] Dave: Yeah. So just in terms of the work that you've done since, in terms of the coaching in particular, I guess that's where what I'm particularly fascinated with is. I'm going to shout out your book because it's one of my favorites in it, Coaching Understood, I'm showing on screen, although it's an audio podcast, but Coaching Understood a pragmatic inquiry into the coaching process. Now, one of the things I loved about this is I haven't had different experiences of coaching myself prior to really embarking on my own journey with this was just how varied I'm being charitable here. I had some bad experiences on the receiving end of coaching. And one of the things that was really heartening with doing the Masters and also your work is the academic rigor to it and the efforts to professionalize the professional, turn it into a profession. Because I think in some respects it still can be seen as just a skill rather than a profession. So for me, it was really understanding the depth of those things. Now, I'm not for listeners that's possibly not what they're interested in, but from a coaching perspective, to understand why certain things work, what is the process that somebody goes through if they're on a journey of that, waking up to something else that's in them? One of the things that's particularly I loved in your model and this was the experiential coaching cycle, and you talked about the surfacing of the emotions and the thoughts and the surfacing of experiences. Now, that's something that's very close to my heart. But also I think it's something that I sense in a lot of coaching clients that there's a point where they come to coaching or they come to some sort of awareness through sensing or a feeling that something's not right. What's your experience? Or do you want to develop that aspect a little bit more from your expertise?

[14:18] Elaine: Yeah, well, when I was writing the book, I was very aware that when I've been with coaching clients, they always came with some kind of dilemma and it was quite difficult to get at that. Do you know what I mean? And I wondered, look at the theory and the philosophy and the psychology behind accessing your feelings and emotions and trying to articulate them to somebody else so that they understand and what you can do to help somebody do that. So that's what I was interested in when I wrote that very first chapter on touching experience. How do you touch somebody's experience? How do you get in touch with you know, we're individuals. We don't share how do we know what they're feeling and what their emotions are? We think we do. We think we've been being empathic or something.

[15:31] Dave: And I guess there's also the part of how does the individual know?

[15:36] Elaine: Yes. And often that's without it being going into counseling or psychotherapy, just getting them to share what's troubling them or what challenges they're facing and get those out in the open and articulate them so you can work with them. It's really important. And sometimes it doesn't happen right at the beginning either. Sometimes they need to know you better before they'll share that. But I started at that point because the process is kind of iterative, but you have to begin by asking the client, so what do you want to talk about? What do you want to get out of the session today? Where do you want to go with this coaching?

[16:27] Dave: Yeah, I think that's been a recurring experience for me myself as a coach, is that often what's first presented isn't the thing. And even to the extent that and I've done it myself, you think that's the thing when you're approaching court, you think that's what you want to talk about, but then you realize there's something else somewhere else behind it. And I think that's just the fascination of it, but also the fascination for the person as well, seeing them go on that journey.

[16:56] Elaine: Yes.

[16:59] Dave: In terms of it, I guess you talk about being empathic and open to them. They've got to get to know you in the process and I guess trust you. But then, I guess once they start talking, there's also this need to allow to sort of park or bracket, as you put our own sort of interpretation, our own values or beliefs on that. And I think that's one of the challenges, isn't it, around letting somebody talk and just air it and then guiding them through it without, I guess, contaminating it to an accent.

[17:41] Elaine: No, I just think that's that kind of parking of your own opinions and biases, I mean, that's key to coaching, isn't it, really just listening and not passing judgment or chipping in with your own advice. That's basic coaching advice. Yeah.

[18:01] Dave: Yeah. And you mentioned you talked about clean language and introduced that. Now, I had somebody, a friend of mine within my circles, Richard Daeder, who's a writer, who's really exploring that aspect of clean language in creativity and writing. So it's a slightly different perspective. What's your view on that in terms of how that might play into the coaching process?

[18:25] Elaine: That's really useful, really interesting. And I wrote a paper with a colleague together. We were teaching a module on the Ma on online learning and this is really early on, about 2004 ish? Yeah. So before the days of zoom when most of the learning was done through text so you would be emailing somebody or posting things on learning platform of some sort. We were using WebCT at the time but everything had to be precise and clean. So particularly if you were trying to coach online, your email responses to a client would need to be clean, if you like. So clean language we found was really useful tool then making things simple, laying things out precisely, being very careful and repeating and checking back and things like that.

[19:42] Dave: Yeah. My understanding of the clean languages as well is that you are very careful not to introduce in your responses or your further questioning that's right. Something that might indicate your opinion or a perception or advice. You might be thinking in the back of your head that you're trying to bracket.

[20:00] Elaine: And so important for online communication because it's very easy if you put yourself in the position of somebody just open an email and you read all kinds of things into it and we were concerned to clean it up so that wouldn't happen, so that it would be received purely, if you like. So the coaching client would be able to just focus on their own issues and not become involved in what the motivation of the coach might be for writing. Why did they put that? What do they mean by this?

[20:38] Dave: Yeah, because to an extent you are sometimes when you approach coaching you are looking for answers and direction to the next step. Even though hopefully as you go through the coaching process you really start to learn that actually I'm working this out myself, I'm looking to organize my own thinking and come up with my own approach to this. You mentioned one of the things obviously that's clear from the study around coaching is that we've taken a lot of the models and the sort of experience within the therapeutic world amongst other things and sort of try to sort of shape it and see what can work within coaching. How do you see the difference between coaching and therapy? Because I had a friend of mine who's a fellow coach used to sometimes you end up knocking on the door of therapy which is kind of an interesting way of looking at it, but you also got to be clear about where the lines are and where you might be stepping beyond your experience or expertise.

[21:47] Elaine: Yeah, well early on in my training being a coach, various short courses and certificate things, I went on a solution focus weekend. I think it was a weekend and that really just summed it up for me. This is really what the difference for coaching is. It's about solutions, it's about the future. Rather than unpacking what happened in the past, what traumas or bad things have happened to us in the past, it's not about digging those up, but it's about setting out a plan for tackling the future. Tomorrow is a new day and you don't have to as somebody once said to me, you don't have to shovel out the darkness to switch on the light.

[22:42] Dave: Right? Yeah. There is a case in a place for therapy. Obviously. If somebody is particularly stuck and I know I've had one or two clients where they've had to park and kind of access. Which I think is obviously really vital and I guess the movement or looking towards the future part of it is anticipating where there might be some options. Obstacles or where you might get in your own way. So one of the areas that I particularly work with life is on is health and around sort of just reclaiming a bit of health and sort of getting back into some healthier habits and ****. They've been so busy with a profession or a career or family and they park their own health without necessarily knowing it. A few years later they've realized my legs are burning, walking up the stairs, I've got a few extra pounds on that, I would like to shift that kind of thing. And one of the things that I find is there is a very clear future aspirations and goals that we have, but also acknowledging that sometimes that self talk hawks back to past and it's how to navigate that without sometimes it might be important that if it is something particularly traumatic but they need to do some work on outside of it. But awareness of past experiences and stories and how they link, how do you see that in terms of playing forward and managing the potential obstacles that you can set yourself?

[24:10] Elaine: Yeah, I know there's a role there for that kind of awareness of where you've come from, where you are now and then setting kind of a map for where you want to be and looking at the steps on the way to it. So in this new book, Braverleaders in Action, we talk about there's a little section in there called Mind the Gap. So it's looking at that gap between where you've been and where you are right now and where you want to get to in the future. Yes, that recognition is important and can be discussed and talked about. If a client does get upset and you can see that it's a significant trauma that needs professional working through with a psychotherapist, then that referral can be made and some psychotherapists are amenable to having a client have a coach. At the same time, I know people who coach while somebody's having therapy, doing something different, working with plans for the future and fulfilling goals.

[25:36] Dave: Yeah, I can say that I think that's important to sort of be very clear that it's going to be a genuine partnership and that everybody is informed of it. So when you talk about the gap. Do you want to just explain a little bit more about that in terms of what you mean by that because I think that's a really important part of the moving forward almost shedding of an identity or a shifting of how they see themselves in order as they move forward yes.

[26:05] Elaine: Well it's about identifying the steps that you might need to take towards the new goal and being realistic about those as well and maybe accepting the fact that it might be two steps forward and one step back so it doesn't all happen nice and linearly and sometimes you have to take a sideways move to be able to move forward at all with where you're going sometimes that can lead you to a more useful place or more useful goal so all of that is up for discussion.

[26:41] Dave: Yeah there's an element of sort of being aware and flexible in that as well because you're right that if an opportunity presents itself, if you saw rigidly on there and you missed something that actually could be fun and actually could shift you in a slightly different direction we don't know, do we? Because the future is there's a lot of we're so unknown, completely unknown. So being aware in that moment in the gap as we're working forward I.

[27:07] Elaine: Like that and to see how you feel inside about it I mean, if something excites you but it takes you off track then maybe you ought to listen to that excitement inside you and think well, I'll do that for a while and see where that takes me.

[27:23] Dave: Don't forget if you're finding that your health has taken a backseat whilst you work to achieve greatness in other areas of your life the Reshape Academy, my coaching and programs are here to help you continue to achieve that success with and not at the expense of your health. Find out more@midlifereshape.com. So, good point about feelings and emotions is what part do they play in that journey? Because one of the things I found is being in touch with the feelings is something that many of us may not be that skilled at one of a better phrase, a lot of time parking in motion in order to yeah. So I guess it's what part of the play in helping you guide you as you move forward in these deciding your goals. Deciding what direction and moving forward yeah well.

[28:20] Elaine: Some emotions will be very useful in that recognizing that you're highly motivated or excited like I say. That could be a good sign but if you feel anger or frustration then that can signal that perhaps that isn't the right way to be moving yeah.

[28:39] Dave: And I suppose it's distinguishing between that and sometimes when you do have a bad day or you do feel like you can't be bothered it's starting to learn the difference between that.

[28:52] Elaine: Yeah, I think that takes time, doesn't it, to do that?

[28:56] Dave: Yeah.

[29:00] Elaine: I remember lots of times where I've had to well, I beat myself up after a bad day. And then one day when I was driving home from work and I was beating myself up about something trivial, I suddenly thought, I think I'll think about that tomorrow and I'll just have a nice evening when I get home. That's what I started to do. I think a night's sleep, there's a lot to be said for sleeping on it and thinking about it the next day. Yeah. At one time, I even had a little physical basket, little decorative basket by the bed because somebody said I think they were talking metaphorically write your worries on a bit of paper and put them in a basket by the bed. And I think that was a metaphor. But I actually had a little basket by the bed. And at bedtime, I would write down all the worries and things that were concerning me, unlikely to keep me awake. And I put them in the basket and it really helped. And then I slept better. And I looked at them the next morning and they were silly things. Didn't have so much power over me the next morning.

[30:13] Dave: Yeah. And I think this is where one of the practices that I talk about a lot is, well, reflective practice. Sort of introducing that into our dear to dear life. As a coach, as a professional, I do that reflective practice. But also I've come to do it from a personal level and trying to sort of encouraging others to find the benefit in daily touching base with a journal or something where you just consider those things. Because I think that's where perhaps developing your understanding of how emotions can be really useful, but they can also be if we react on them, they could also be misleading depending on where we're at. So getting the northern nuance.

[30:54] Elaine: That's right. And you can look at them from different angles. I used to do an exercise with the students. We just described the emotion or the feeling, whatever it was, describe it and what went before it. And then you look at it from different angles, look at it more factually. And then you would say, so what might I learn from this? And break down the reflection into different aspects that can be useful rather than just sit down with a blank piece of paper. So you begin by just logging the emotion. Say this is what happened. And then you can explore it in more detail and say, how did it make you feel? And then you analyze it and then you take the learning from it. So pretty much four steps.

[32:10] Dave: Yeah.

[32:11] Elaine: And that can be quite helpful, especially for people that haven't reflected much before.

[32:17] Dave: Yeah, because sometimes you kind of be quite intimidated by a blank page to think, well, what am I right here? What is the point of all of this? But actually, you're right. If you kind of keep it simple initially, just. That you can start to develop what you learn from it and probably pick up trends as well, I guess, over time, if you start to see similar things yeah.

[32:40] Elaine: And you keep repeating the same thing or you keep having the same emotion, like me beating myself up, I beat myself up in the car going home so many times.

[32:58] Dave: Yeah. And you find little weird, don't you? And it's capturing those that worked.

[33:06] Elaine: That's right.

[33:09] Dave: You know, you mentioned metaphor before. How useful is metaphor within? Because I know it comes up in clean language and some of the questions that could be asked, but how useful is metaphor in helping somebody articulate next bit or articulate their thinking around what they're wanting to achieve?

[33:29] Elaine: Yeah, metaphor and also creative materials can be really useful as well. So it's the same kind of process, really. Just putting something in the place of the emotional, the dilemma. So what's that like? You could do it with asking them to draw a picture. I once went to a workshop where someone used fabrics. They had a whole selection of fabrics and wanted us to be in touch with our dilemma, our current dilemma, and then choose a fabric and interact with it. That was quite unusual and quite emotionally charged.

[34:25] Dave: On my Masters with Ron Lawson's approach around the reflective sideways, using an artifact, create an artifact to sort of become or reflect to be a place for the emotional feelings in a different perspective. If you haven't experienced this is one of the things where I think I'm a big fan of metaphor and sort of create nothing because it can help create that distance that's right from it rattling around your head all the time. And it represents this. This is what the meaning is and we're articulating it around. That particular is usually in language, but.

[35:04] Elaine: If you get away from language, you can use other things as well.

[35:08] Dave: Yeah. So I remember I had somebody on David Wood who was a creative expert, and he talks about using objects and just picking randomly an object and sort of seeing what that means. And I think sometimes it can be useful as well as even picking a random object and sort of trying to see how that might embody, you know, that randomness of something. So it's the importance of getting it out of your head when you're locked in and perhaps you don't see it, which is where metaphor talking about it could be used.

[35:40] Elaine: Or even in the coaching situation, actually sharing a model that's drawn and you're going to point to bits of it and just getting it out there is good.

[35:54] Dave: Yeah. And challenging the thinking, isn't it? Because one of the things I find with some of the models that I might share with a client is that it gets them to think in a slightly different way, even though they may not get it initially. Think about it, and sometimes it penny drops or something clicks about another aspect of that thinking, feeling, whatever, later. Yeah, yeah, that's very powerful. I guess one of the things is for somebody to start to articulate, start to get it out of their head, whether through language or talking to somebody journal or artifact. So it can be really useful just to help them shift along just in relation to the work we do. Now, the book that you want to give a shout out to, the book that you know that's the current work.

[36:46] Elaine: That you just published, just published earlier this month, June, it's called Braver Leaders in Action and the subtitles Personal and Professional Development for Principled Leadership. So I've written this with Mike McLaughlin, who did his doctorate with us at Oxford. Brooks on braver leaders. So this is our second book on this topic, but this one is much more about putting the ideas into action. So it's a very practical book and it's very current because the context that we talk about Braver leaders in relation to current existential crises like pandemic Ukraine, climate change, the challenges that leaders are going to have to face will require them to be brave. That's why we wrote the book. And it has eight chapters and there are eight key kind of aspects of becoming braver, becoming aware, generating motivation, challenging mindsets, things that we've pulled out from Mike's experience and his research and my experience. There's eight chapters and within each chapter there's four cornerstones. We call them cornerstone building blocks, if you like, for the Braverleader to address, like understanding our own emotions, being kind. That's in the chapter on emotional intelligence. For motivation, the first cornerstone is becoming inspired. So to be motivated you need some inspiration and then thinking about the future you and committing to commitment, then validating is really important. Regulating or dialing down the ego. So becoming more humble.

[39:19] Dave: You mentioned inspiration and in the context of some of the challenges that you just mentioned for the world, for leaders, I think the challenge is to find that sort of hope and inspiration to then move into shaping and changing and inspiring others, I guess. But I guess is there anything in there around that? How do you find that inspiration? Where do you find or what do you look for? Because I guess there is a lot of negativity out there and this is a challenge for many of us, whether you're a leader or an individual. If we're looking to make changes often there's a lot of sort of energy against that, I guess. So what is it in terms of finding inspiration? How can they do that? Or what's some of the advice or thoughts?

[40:08] Elaine: Well, one of the ways they might do that is to think about who inspires them, what leaders do they admire and what aspects of them do they want to emulate.

[40:24] Dave: Yeah, that's a very powerful exercise. I remember doing that in a leadership. We've delivered in the past.

[40:30] Elaine: Yes, it's quite common as well. And it doesn't have to be a real world leader, Richard Branson or something. It can be a fictional writer, which is very good to do. For instance, I was quite inspired when I watched Designated Survivor on Netflix. This guy there seemed to be he was humble, he related to everybody. He was just so concerned that he was doing the right thing. I thought he was good. We should have more presidents like this.

[41:14] Dave: Yeah, very true. You're right. And one of the things I remember watching a couple of episodes for those this is about a member of the American government who finds himself being the last person nominated be president after some major catastrophe. But I think you're right about the characteristics. And one of the things was that he approached things with that humility and lack of experience as well. Perhaps somebody who might be in that position through having gone through it might be cynical and untrusting. He made mistakes. He was, for one of a better word, shafted by people from time to time. But he learned and he came back with it. And I think that's where that bravery comes in as well, isn't it? Because if you're going to approach something with kindness, with some openness and those things, then there will be times when you make mistakes where you manipulate it or somebody takes advantage. That's the bravery bit about. Right, okay, so what happened there? Rather than feeling defeated and down, you know.

[42:23] Elaine: Yeah. We talk about him in this book. Right.

[42:28] Dave: I totally get it because I think there's a character that's brilliant. Yeah. Keifer Sutherland, doesn't it? Anyway, whoever it is, the accurate.

[42:42] Elaine: So.

[42:43] Dave: In terms of it, this book sounds like, as you say, really timely and really important. So you've just launched it, and I take it, in terms of its leadership in any form, in any organization, what are your aspirations for the book and for reaching well, it's going well.

[43:05] Elaine: The publisher is doing lots of work to promote it, and Mike and I are writing various short pieces for trade leadership magazines and online journals and things. Yeah. So that's going well. And the publishers putting it forward for Business Book of the Year December. So we're early stage with that, but we'll see how we go with that. But it's on their list to nominate. But that's a big process that has to go to a long list and then a short list. But it's nice for the publisher to put it forward.

[43:50] Dave: Yeah, great. From my experience, if it's like any of your other books, then it contains some really excellent well, I read the.

[43:58] Elaine: Conclusion before our talk this morning, and it made me cry.

[44:07] Dave: So what was going on? Give us a feel.

[44:17] Elaine: I've been talking about two of the major issues for leaders coming up, the climate of the environment and then well, being a mental health, which is another issue, one that's particularly close to Mike's heart. So we've been talking about how braver leaders might navigate those issues, about what bravery might mean there. And then we began the book with a question. So I brought it in right at the end of the book. So we began this book by asking question for our readers to keep in mind. If you knew without a shadow of a doubt that your mission was to make a real difference in the world, what would you begin by doing now, today? So now, as we let go of our ideas and the book begins its journey into the world, we want to ask that question again as a call to arms and urge all readers to think about what difference they can make and what action they can take. As a well known and very brave caped crusader said in the film Batman Begins, it's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me. It is a call to arms, this book.

[45:52] Dave: Yeah, I love that. And I think not just to leaders, I think to all of us. Because for me, the restless midlife is more than just shifting to do something that you want to do, although that's that's great. It's about recognizing that perhaps there's still something else in me that I could give, that I wanted. And it's a two way street because I'll get a lot out of fulfilling my whatever that purposes or following up interest or passion. But there's a benefit on the other side, and I think we need more of that in the midlife doesn't mean.

[46:25] Elaine: That as the word we use in that conclusion is legacy. Yeah, I think legacy is something that comes to play a bigger part when you hit midlife and get past it.

[46:38] Dave: Yeah, because I think there's a lot of questions, isn't there? What have I achieved? What time have I got left? And what am I making of it? What about this scratch that I haven't itched before? This voice is feeling, and you're right, and I think those can become very proud. And actually, it can feel a bit overwhelming if we're not open and exposed to the possibility that actually you could do something. There are things you could do, whether it's in a leadership role or just personally making changes within your world. So, yeah, I think that's a really powerful thing. And it does resonate very much with the restless midlife ethos. I've worked hard, I've lived a life, and perhaps it's not quite the fulfillment that I've achieved. I've got a lot to be thankful for, a lot to be appreciative of, but there's still something else I can give and I can do and I want to achieve for me and for perhaps knocking a little dent in the world, even if it's my corner of the world. So, yes, I think actually that's a lovely way to finish on it because I think it is about that. I'm really honored to have you on the podcast and ask you some questions. Perhaps some of those are delving into the coaching aspect of it. But again. From a self coaching perspective. It is about recognizing that exactly that we might be in midlife. We might still have dreams or ambitions or things that we want to chase down and we can articulate and allowing the feelings to service and then getting to know our feelings. To sort of allow them to factor in and direct us can be really useful and that's where coaching could come in. But it can also be that idea of starting to listen to ourselves, perhaps through some reflective practice and that kind of thing, so we can sort of tease out that goal ourselves. Thank you for your time. It's been brilliant to meet you, Elaine.

[48:22] Elaine: Thank you Dave. Great.

[48:24] Dave: And what I will just listen, as always, will be links in the show notes, including the links to, well, the book that I've referenced, any site that you particularly want to direct me to, but also the new book as well, which I think is very timely and very powerful. So thank you very much for your time.

[48:41] Elaine: Thank you Dave. Thank you. Good luck everybody.

[48:50] Dave: Thank you for listening. You'll find all show notes, links and resources mentioned@midlifereshape.com podcast and it would mean so much if you could spread the word to your fellow restless midlifers, share the show and links. And if you aren't already subscribe to the show in your podcast feed of choice. And one more thing, if you enjoy the show, it would be great if you could read it by visiting midlifereeshaped. Comreview. It would mean so much and I may even give you a shout out in return. And a quick final thanks to production assistant Karen North of North Beer and for the music, which is called Silverstar by the awesome Logannicholson of Musicformakers@musicfamakers.com. Take care for now and don't forget, you really can reshape your midlife health and rekindle that spirit of adventure.

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