Re-Shaping our Weight Loss Efforts - Interview with Graeme Mills
The Restless Midlifer : Episode 74
In this episode, Dave is joined by client and friend Graeme Mills who has experienced his own mid-life wake-up and weight loss journey. We explore this and in answer to Graeme's questions about Dave's approach Dave explains his thinking behind it.
Graeme is an experienced MD and non-executive with a passion for helping organisations develop high performing people and through SmartCarbon, helping them to meet the challenges of the climate emergency. you can connect with Graeme on Linked in at https://www.linkedin.com/in/gpmgraememills/.
Dave Algeo is a Restless Midlifer, searching for answers and adventure. His mission, should you choose to join him, is to seek out ways to get life back on his terms, heading in a more fulfilling direction and enhancing his health in the process. Dave is a writer, coach, and constantly curious person, striving to encourage others to live big - by identifying the small but significant things that can transform the life we are living. Join Dave as he explores how to regain the spirit of adventure and childlike curiosity whilst managing the "grown-up" responsibilities of life.
Dave's approach to making changes in life, health and direction, is rooted in his 'sprout sweater philosophy. Check out his 'Crackerjack' video here https://youtu.be/OZM4ObMSu6U to learn more about the basic metaphor. Check out episodes 30 and 31 to learn more about Dave's approach.
Visit https://www.midlifereshape.com/podcast or search for 'Restless Midlifer' in your favourite podcast feed. To find out more about the podcast, and episode show notes visit https://www.midlifereshape.com/podcast Drop Dave a line at dave@restlessmidlifer.com to ask questions, offer feedback or suggestions for future podcast content.
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Transcript (AI generated):
[00:03] Dave: The restless midlife of podcast. Get health, weight and life back on your terms. Welcome to episode 74 of The Restless, midlife and Podcast. Right, today is another interview. It's a longer one, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time in the preamble or give you any food for thought before we start. This interview is with Graham Mills, who is a friend of mine and a client in terms of the coaching side of things. And in this interview, we talk about a lot of things, including midlife story, midlife mindset, the shifts that we can experience, but we do get into weight loss, and Graham talks a little bit more about his weight loss efforts and his successes in that over the last few years and where he's at now. What also is worth listening to in this interview is that Graham asked me a couple of questions because of a couple of things. He's embarked on a couple of programs in the past with me. He does have some questions. So it's been really useful for me to be able to clarify some of those points and that might actually be very useful for yourselves in terms of getting a feel for my approach. But also some answers to questions that you might have if you've looked into any of the material that I do share around how do we approach reshaping our health. Losing that weight in midlife. When perhaps we've allowed the years and the pounds to pile on. Kind of thing. Not that we get much choice about the years piling on, but the pounds, et cetera. So enjoy the interview, let me know any thoughts at Dave@restlessmidlifer.com and I'll catch you on the other side.
[01:33] Graeme: Take care.
[01:38] Dave: How are you doing? You all right to have you along for the interview? We've known each other for a lot of years and you were kind enough to give me a little case study video of our experiences working together. But if we want to look at bigger picture, tell us a bit about yourself, your journey, and we'll dig into your midlife experiences, because that's what it's really about. I think.
[02:04] Graeme: My journey has been pretty unplanned and I think that's just part of my general outlook. I've got a curious mind that kind of follows different things and that's pretty much been my career. So I left school with poor results overall and I managed to get a job working in a lab groups bookmakers and I worked there for a bit, then I got a job at the Council and then I realized I wasn't going to get anywhere without proper education. So I was working on the marketing department at the Council and I managed to get onto a marketing degree, what was Newcastle Polytechnic. I completed that and then the chart exams as well. So I was all set for my career in Martin, which I did. I started off research, management, and then eventually, after about 15 years was ahead of marketing with a large engineering company. Well, the things about Martin are interested is the people side and the behavioral side of it and that was all the thing that kind of why is it that particular message or that particular approach or product works better than another one? And a lot of the psychological experience that we've done around that sort of stuff, like some of the classic ones, like when they launched a cake mix back in the they launched this cake mix which is brilliant because people just needed to add water to create a cake and it bombed, the whole product bombed. So they relaunched it but you had to add water and an egg and that took off. So it was more difficult to do when you had to go out and buy an egg to make it, the product took off and it depends on the interpretation. So Freudian psychologists would have went back to the egg representing the womb and all that sort of stuff but in reality it was about putting a bit of effort into something. If you're making a cake you feel if you need to put that effort so all those sort of things that can behave then 20 years ago I left my job, in hindsight quite bravely, but it didn't feel like bravery at the time. And I set up my own business and I was going to be doing two things digital marketing, I just launched It and also environmental tape marketing because that's the particular area that this engineering company was focused on. So I did that for a bit and that worked, that worked very well. We grew, I had about five people working for us. Then the financial crash, change of government change policy impacts quite significantly and that peter down and then I changed tax and I started to do more stuff on internal organizational sort of development and I guess that's probably if I was to kind of categorize myself in anything it would be around that. It's about organizational development, helping organizations develop processes, approaches, behaviors that help them be successful, particularly around people really stuff. So I use a lot of work with investors and people but I also work with other clients who are looking to take that next step in terms of their mature early in organization, often heading towards an exit of some form. So I'll support organizations in that way. So it's a very broad frame and some of my clients sees in all sorts of different ways. I used to be the It expert, which is ridiculous, but I can do lots of different things. I'm a generalist in a lot of ways. So I run accounts for one of the companies I'm supporting at the moment as well as some doing all the financial stuff as well as the kind of business plan and strategy stuff as well. So yeah, quite a varied role, not the best approach to build a career. I think to build a career, you better off focusing on one area and become an expert in that sort of thing. But for me, it suits me, it keeps me interested, it keeps us learning, which are key things for me, and keeps us curious.
[06:48] Dave: It's interesting. Is it? Because I think I was always brought up to sort of get a degree, get a job set for life, and specializing was always seen as a really important thing to do. And there is value in that, obviously. Clearly you get a specialist knowledge and expertise, but I think is it Tim Ferriss, the author of Four I work with, he talks about I can't remember his phrase, but he talks about being that jack of all trades, but in a positive way. So you can be more nimble and flexible and you can follow your interests currently and develop that. Do you feel that just sort of forward dive into the midlife, but do you feel like you're saying it's kind of suited your interest? Do you feel it's fulfilling, that work has been fulfilling over the years? Or is it that you've been trying and looking for things? What is it about that work?
[07:39] Graeme: Yeah, it's been fulfilling up to an extent. It's very strange. I was thinking about this the other day. I was talking to we were doing a zoom call and with a fair brigade, and he noticed in the background some cameras that I've got on the bookshelves.
[08:05] Dave: Yeah.
[08:07] Graeme: And he said to his, must be great to have a passion, something you're really passionate about. I wish I had that sort of thing. I'm not really passionate about. I'm one of these people who kind of jump from one thing to another and I don't necessarily see I've got quite a few cameras there that I've quite interested in them. They're quite tactile. They're really interested in the all mechanical, and I got an interest in them, so I've got a lot of interest, but a lot of them are quite transient. You look up ukulele was the thing at the time. You used to do ukulele, didn't you?
[08:52] Dave: Yeah, I've still got it. I rarely pick up Rosie Claire's. It more than me.
[08:55] Graeme: Yeah, so the same. So I've also got robot collection up there. Yeah, that didn't last too long, but I kind of take things to a certain extent and then I move on. I don't know what that is about, actually. And I can see that even when I was in McKenna Vinterest as well, I used to do younger days, I used to do tie boxing and I became quite good at it and I used to fight. And I got to the point where I was regional champion for my weight, and the next thing would have been to kind of go on, but I've had it enough by then. Yeah, the whole getting up early in the Mongol for running sparring for rounds and rounds and rounds and all the dedication that you had to put in with as well. And I just thought, I've done what I want to do in it, so I kind of get to that point, I've done it, what's next? What's next? So I'm always like that, and I think I get back to something mentioned earlier about Popular. There's definitely strength because all the very successful people, I think, stick at it, so they would be work on there, becoming British Championship kind of box, and then European, those sort of people that got a lot of respect for those people, they would move on to that. It didn't really appeal to us, all right, I've got something, I can feel a bit pride and I'll find somebody else doing that, so I'll move on to something else as well. So I think I don't know what it's about, I think it's just part of who I am. It's something I've had to work with in other areas of my life. Particularly in relationships. Obviously. I'm going live your life like that in terms of relationships. So it's something I've had a mindful of. And I don't think the universal thing I apply across my life now. But. Yeah. It's been that sort of scenario.
[11:08] Dave: Really.
[11:08] Graeme: That I've had pretty epidomized my career and actually a lot of my hobbies and all that stuff. I would love to find well, I don't know if I would love to find someone that was passionate and overwhelming in life. I don't know if I would want that, I just want the freedom to be able to explore something else, to say, oh, okay, that looks great as well over there, and I walk over there and not spend so much time over that thing and oh, that looks very interesting, so I'll walk across that as well. That's who I am. And a lot of ways it may not be the best way to approach a career, and it's not without its flaws and things I have to modify and work around, but that's who I am. And I think there's a bit of midlife, isn't it? It's about acceptance.
[11:56] Dave: Yeah. Now, I think it's interesting, the phrase that springs to mind is, with everything, there's a trade off, isn't there? And part of, as you say, get into midlife is perhaps realizing that you are who you are. And yes, you can play these strengths and manage your weaknesses, you can develop this and focus on that, but the end of the day, some of us just use the word curious. And I like that because I recognize a lot of that in me, the ukulele, the guitar, I get to a certain level and then I'm kind of looking for something else, for whatever reason, but it is who I am that curiosity, and curiosity itself is really valuable, but there's a trade off, just like somebody who's particularly driven on one thing. I guess, driven, they've got to make trade offs in other areas of life in order to be able to do that, as you said, with a training for if you wanted to move on to be a British champion, there's a lot of trade offs there in order to do that. And it's down to this is where I think when you talk about midlife and acceptance, I think it's in earlier in life, you kind of go with, well, I should, I should just do that. I've got the potential, so I should, everybody says I should. I remember when I first joined the police, got through my exams quite quickly and people saying, you should do this, you need accelerate, promotion needs to do this, and I fell into it a bit, but part of me was always thinking, that's just not me. Thankfully, I didn't pursue it too much and I kind of realized I want to do other things but the should thing is something that perhaps younger in life you're dictated by a lot.
[13:33] Graeme: Yeah. But as you get older. There's fewer people telling you what you should do when you're younger. You've got your parents. Your teachers. You've got all those people telling you they should do now. When you get to our age. I mean. The kids try to tell us what to do. But they don't have that power that a teacher. A parent. A boss would have. And we both been working for himself for over 20 years now. I think that's interesting as well. I think we always don't want to be working for myself. I find it really when I was employed, I used to work three years, move on, three years, move on, and I did quite well, I always got promoted, so it wasn't just something, I got quite good at it and I thought, oh, I'll go and do something else now. So my aspiration is always to be quite good at something and then I've achieved it, actually, while I'm doing it, I'm fully committed to it, really. Do work yourself, and then all of a sudden goes like that, I say, Well, I've got quite good at and something else, I'd be quite good at that as well.
[14:48] Dave: Isn't that an interesting thing? I think that speaks a lot to the power of being interested and how your interests can shape how you develop your skills in that particular area or you get good at something. And this is the difference between driving yourself when you don't quite have that interest or passion or whatever you want to call it, you're driving yourself even when perhaps your heart isn't in it. And I did a little bit of that within the police myself at times, but I quickly realized this is just not me, do you know what I mean? But when I can put my mind, when I find something, you're right, that interest drives you into learning because you're hungry for it, you love it, you enjoy it and pops up a ceiling on everything but you kind of pick up skills and that broader range of skills still you can bring them into whatever you're doing. Now, this is over simplifying but one dimensional expert and success in this area versus a generalist, but you pick up a really great breadth of skills and the ability to learn, the ability to problem solve and think differently because of that experience, I think is really valuable as well. I reckon there probably be a lot of people that can resonate with that and probably have fallen into that trouble I should be or I should do, but actually should you?
[16:07] Graeme: Yeah, this isn't where you just got there. It almost felt like you and we were attempting to find a thing. To find a thing. And I think that's true and I think that's probably what I'm doing. I'm trying to find a thing but I think now that I've got the middle age. I'm realizing that I still want to do that. I want to continue being curious. I still want to try and find the thing but I'm not bothered about the destination. I just like the journey. I just like the journey of getting there. Whether I find the thing or not. Not too bothered about, but I like the journey and I think that's something I've come in terms of. So on the younger, yeah, I probably got more frustrated that I needed to find a thing, I needed to find a passion. I remember reading books what do you call it? Sir ken education.
[17:14] Dave: Ken Roberts.
[17:15] Graeme: Yeah, Ken reading his book about finding your passion or yes, essence and those sort of things, and we recommended doing free right now. I tried all these sort of things and mainsets and trying to think of things and I didn't get there and I found that a bit frustrating but I think now I'm quite comfortable with it, actually. Perhaps my thing is do lots of things quite well.
[17:45] Dave: It's funny, isn't it? I think there's a lot of value in that. And you talk there about the journey, not the destination per se. Curiosity is perhaps the thing and how many of us you talk about Ken Roberts when he talks about creativity and I think creativity comes from curiosity and looking at the world with a different way, in a different way or perhaps bringing something else in. I think they can go hand in hand, but it doesn't mean you have to actually reach that end. Perhaps the thing that we're looking for, there isn't a thing, but it's the process of looking for the thing that really excites us. I've got a friend who says you're always looking for something, you're always searching, and I think it's very true, but like you, I've come to realize that actually that's the fun bit and I'm not bothered about finding the one thing I'm working on. I used to see it as a funnel. Like there's a wide end where I'm doing a lot of things. Vast majority of things are things I don't want to do. And my job is to move along down the funnel and shift out the stuff I don't want to do and do more of the stuff I do want to do. And I'm not bothered about getting to the bottom of the point. I just want to do less of the stuff I don't want to do. Obviously you have to do stuff that you don't want to do in life. I'm quite happy bimbling around. They're working on stuff I really am curious about, fascinated with, whatever it is. Yeah.
[19:09] Graeme: There is always those things I can grab my attention on, not just work wise, but kind of reading and all those sort of things. Oh, that's quite interesting. I get lost in YouTube videos. I'll kind of order multiple audiobooks on the whole range of things. That sounds quite good. I might have a look at that. That might be stimulating. And there's nothing better than having that ping moment, that revelation that, oh, God, you know, that makes sense now. And I think that's with an acceptance that you'll always be learning things that will make sense, that will give you so this is, I guess we're talking very positively about midlife, but it kind of makes you comfortable with not knowing and not knowing all the answers, I find myself. And I don't think this is universal, to be honest, because I've got friends who are still very competitive and don't like to feel as they're wrong or inaccurate or they've got something that they can improve and say that a lot. But I think as you get older, there's a great tendency for you to be more comfortable with your areas that you're not knowledgeable and your weaknesses and those sort of things. I laugh a lot at my weaknesses now. I've just come back. The things that made me laugh when I was on holiday were the things that I did, which were really funny or stupid. I was hard to show you the photograph, but we were in Greece on a Greek island, Scaffold, and we were at a beach, and the beach was all pebbly and we'd been on a board trip and I was tired, I was really tired and I couldn't lie down on the pebbly beach, even if you put a towel on. It was one thing. So I found a tree to rest against it. It happened to be an olive tree in British. It was just on the beach. And so I went back in it and I kind of hooked my arms around the branches to get a bit of support. And so I ended up kind of sleeping, stood up like that, which my wife, and took a full photograph of us as well. And I thought, that's so funny, why would you do that? Sort of stuff. All those sort of things I think I guess I enjoy.
[22:13] Dave: When you say about laughing at yourself I think if you think about it. There is so much that we don't know and there are so many things I just couldn't do or not couldn't do necessarily but at the moment my skill level is zero or very low but there's other things that I'm interested in and I'm not actually bothered about those things whereas perhaps when I'm younger. If it fell into an expectation from another or a job requirement I remember being in the police with certain things I just didn't I hated it being answering the telephones when the comms person would go off for the break I just hated that job but it was me that was wrong I felt I was but why am I so useless of this? Whereas now I just think I just don't like that I just don't like being on the end of the phone I'd rather be in person with somebody talk you kind of get that acceptance whereas back then you're kind of measuring against other people's expectations, aren't you?
[23:05] Graeme: Yeah and I think that's one of.
[23:08] Dave: The best things is maturing out of that or just letting that go yeah but you talk about obviously the positive side these are some of the positives this is a challenge for midlife because it's a bit of sweet at times obviously you've said you've just been on holiday at some reflections but in terms of midlife. That awareness and what have you do you want to talk about your thoughts? Because we were talking before we started recording we should include this but what's your thoughts around that bit of sweet side of it?
[23:38] Graeme: Yeah. I think midlife is a really.
[23:44] Dave: Eventful.
[23:44] Graeme: Period probably second only to adolescence in terms of the kind of emotional changes and other changes that happen around your life so you have children that are grown up you begin to see the end of your career so you begin to have to change your mindset around those sort of things and your health kind of big lesson for me this over the last year is that I can't do what I used to do when I was young in terms of eating and all those things so your health changes. You become more aware of your own mortality and those sort of things so I think your priorities change and it's difficult it's difficult it's difficult to come to terms with all those things are big things so that can be a challenging it's something I've had to face last year kind of part of the lockdown but it's been going on for a long time. Longer than that so I was gradually putting more and more weight it was definitely in the obese category and I just ignored it I'm an optimist by nature as well which I think has its flaws my optimism said I've put on a bit of weight. But that's fine. If I look at myself in a certain angle in a mirror with a light dimmed and from a distance, I don't know, too bad if I squint. So I done all those things. And when we went on holiday, I became the photographer because I didn't want to take photographs of myself, because I used to get the photograph and say, who's that ******* on holiday? And that was me. And it was like, oh my goodness. And I used to avoid that. And that was horrible feeling the face of the reality. So partly that optimism and partly, definitely an avoidance strategy was not to have any photograph taken. So the best way to do that is to become a photographer. So one of my transient interests has been photography. So I become the photograph to do kind of at the end of it. I used to put together, I used to do videos. I got really into that as well, compiling videos as well. I love doing it because there was no pictures of me in it or very fleetly pops a couple of headshots, that would be it. Then last year, for whatever reason, my youngest son had an interest in taking some photography, doing some photography and some video work as well. So he's ten, so I kind of let him go with my goal pro and all that stuff as well. As a consequence, he took some video footage of me and I went, oh, my goodness me, that's ridiculous. And then bravely, because the other thing I stood in the scales for like five years. The other thing I did was I'll go and get myself weird. So it kind of buckled me confidence up again. The Batman was optimism of a few pounds to lose something. And I looked on a scale and it was ridiculous. That was me thought, this is ridiculous. How can I possibly be that way? I stepped on enough five times just to make sure, and I was still coming up with the same sort of thing. And I knew I'd put weight on during the lockdown. But I actually think, looking back on a few snaps that I have been in, I've had this issue for about five or six years now, gone from a very fit boxing type thing and youth to where was now was a real shock framed because it was kind of health. It wasn't about I don't want to say vanity, because it's not about really that sounds like a judgment on it, but it wasn't just about looking good, it was about health. Yeah. So it really shocked us. How much heavier was the scale? Moment was the moment. And that just triggered something in it that said, I have to get this right. And that's where I kind of started. So I lost two storm in about three months, and then I lost another stone over another seven months and weight stabilized I still like to lose a little bit more, but yeah, I'm pretty happy. There are photographs, albeit in a very strange position, leaning against an olive tree. I've just come out with quite a few photographers of swimming and all that sort of stuff and I'm not ashamed of things. I could lose a bit more weird, but I'm not ashamed of how I look, but more importantly, just how I feel. It's just completely different. And I followed some of the things that I've been reading your midlife emails and I can see those things work. The ones I kind of struggle with. I was wanting to ask you about this was this idea of I know you talked quite a bit about it, about this mindlessness eaten. I'm conflicted with that because I see how that works. My daughter's boyfriend, who is a climbing instructor, he's extremely fit and healthy and lean and he'll come back from work and say, I don't think I've eaten today. You just not be aware of it at all. You'll make something really nice. He didn't even think about calories or anything like that. He thinks about that. Whereas me, if I'm mindless, I was thinking about this meeting where you want to have and I was thinking about that and I was in a cup of tea and I came back and I was making a cup of tea and I noticed I actually picked some harm out of the fridge and I was eating the harm without being conscious of eating the harm. So I can see there's a latte. But for me, and I do know what I mean because there is elements of it now that I do, because sometimes I forget that I've not eaten or I've certainly don't think I think about calories. I like this idea of energy. I think that's a really more useful kind of descriptor of what's going on. So I like that. But the mindfulness seems to be two edge sort of thing because I do most of the cooking, so if I'm cooking, I'll be cooking and eating and cooking without even being aware of it. So that seems to be a bit of a negative for me in some respect. But on the flip side, not being preoccupied with food and challenging that sort of focus on it. So even when you're hungry, I feel a bit hungry now. I love something, it's dinner time, I go have someone eat or something as well. So I don't know. What is it? Tell me a bit more about that.
[32:47] Dave: I'm delighted to announce the imminent launch of the Midlife Reshape Academy.
[32:50] Graeme: This is a load, time and cost.
[32:52] Dave: Commitment membership option for those of you who want to embark on your own midlife Reshape with the support of a program, supporting resources and courses, Q and A, support for me, and the chance to be part of the restless midlife community of like minded people sharing similar calls and. Ambitions. So if you're feeling like your health has drifted. You're not in the shape you want to be and want to get back to feeling more comfortable in your own skin. Then hop over to midlifereshape comACADEMY to find out more and join the prelaunch Waitlist. Where you'll be kept up to date with launch details. What's in store. And to take advantage of founder member discounts that's midlifereshape comACADEMY. So I get right a couple of questions because there's a few things to unpack, as they say in these podcast things. Let's unpack that a bit. But firstly, what do you understand by that mindlessness when it comes to minority? Because I'll develop that a little bit. Okay, you understand by that as the.
[33:50] Graeme: Messages for it why took away correctly or incorrectly was this idea that you weren't constantly thinking about calories in particular or any other metric about what you were eating. So it didn't become something that kind of preoccupied your main food intake and when you should be eating and how you've eaten and all that sort of stuff as well. So that's why I brought right, if.
[34:26] Dave: We kind of step it back because this would be an interesting thing to get your thoughts on this. But I've been thinking about this idea of the levers we pull in order to achieve the goal that we want. In this case, it's managing our weight down to a better place. Talking about calories, I think I prefer to talk about it's about the energy balance and there's a lot about types of diets and types of foods and the impact and all of that. But when you come down to it, the clear science relates to the metabolic balance between energy and energy out. Calories is a measure. Calories is a measure. If you had a colorimeter, it would pretty accurately measure a calorie. We're not colorimitous, but generally we're generally pretty amazing things that can manage that. But it's energy in versus energy out. And to lose weird energy in has to be less than energy. Yeah, and less energy out. The challenge is that obviously a lot of diets here you need to dramatically drop, and that's when it's just not sustainable and it can have counterproductive things. But if we can find that rough space where we know I can sustain that, I can do that, that's not going to take over my life. Do you know what I mean? So that's the first part of it. So I'll come back to leave us in a minute. But the argument around the mindful versus mindless is that a diet. If you go on some of the diets that are suggested. You have to be very mindful. Especially in the early stages of everything you do. Everything you prepare. Everything you measure it out. You count this or whatever. You have to be very mindful of what you do eat and don't eat. You have to be present. And the research is clear that that is something that works, but only for a point. And actually, 97% of people return to former habits. So the idea being present to it, that's great. If you can hold life and push life back, the realities of life and just focus on one thing, which is perhaps when you haven't got your younger or you haven't got all the responsibilities, it's the only thing you think about your tie box. When you think about your training and your food intake, that's the only thing that matters in your life. That's probably doable. But most of us, particularly midlife, as we have, like, so much going on and emotionally, lots of things, and I think that's a challenge. So it's an unrealistic way to do it sustainably over the long term.
[36:53] Graeme: Yeah, I agree.
[36:54] Dave: So are you okay with that? So far, mindful bit is let's try to recognize that the majority of our life we live mindlessly, and that's not a negative. What we mean by that, or what is meant by that, is that you're on automatic pilot when we're talking about mindful practice. You practice bringing your head to here and now to notice things. But the majority of dear, we're off our heads, spinning on other things, worrying about this, doing that. You're just getting on with the routines, rituals, the jobs you've got to do. And very rarely are we present in the moment. So that mindlessness, and it's not a negative, although it can people do say, it's mindless this, that and the other. It's actually our natural state for a lot of time. In that mindless state, in our day to day lives, we get into routines, rituals and habits, and it's those that if they're linked to or without thinking, they're tied into food. How many times you sat down, watch a Netflix thing and you polished off a bag of Doritos without even tears in it. That's mindlessness in and of itself. It's not a negative. It's where we operate. But there are potentially positive and negative consequences. So the negative consequences are polished off a bag of Doritos. I haven't even flipped and tasted them. It's just because it's what I do when I sit in front of Netflix or I'm at the pictures. Do you know what I mean? So that's where generally lifestyle weird, drift creeps up, is not because we are deliberately, presently gorging on food. We'll have a blowout here in a celebration there, but on the horse, because we're mindlessly just taking in bits like the ham and the thing. I'm terrible biscuits. So that mindlessness bit is the challenge. But the research shows, and I do have a caveat to this, because I mentioned Professor Brian Wonsink, and he's been actually quite discredited in some of his research. The underpinning principles of research still valid, but his research, he exaggerated the results. But the point is, you can with shifting some of your habits, rituals, routines, and changing your environment, mindlessly shift the overeating down towards the underreading, if that makes sense.
[39:14] Graeme: Yeah.
[39:15] Dave: And that's where designing your kitchen, your environment, like what's available or not, it's not foolproof, it's not 100%. But I'll give you an example. Perfect example is Rosie's little snacks for lunch. She also have a little, like a little bag of those tiny little Jammy Dodges. There's a little bag, 70, 80 calories or something. Calories bear with us for that. Versus a big pack of chocolate hoblobs that bless he brings in when after a bad day. Now, I know that if I go down and fancy a couple on board, if there's little bags of whatever, the champion Dodges, I'll pinch one, maybe two. But that feels subconscious, it feels like a lot. Big packet of chocolate hobnobs. The package gone before I know it, because there's no signal, there's no opening up a packet to tell me subconsciously how much I've had. And you might have experienced when drinking between having Pints versus red wine. I've got myself in some horrible states with red wine when socializing, because I've had no way to subconsciously calculate how much I've had. That's probably a sad, shameful thing to say. When I've had beer, I've had one paint, I've had two paint.
[40:30] Graeme: You keep track of recording this.
[40:34] Dave: That's right. But I think, let's be right. Let's be honest, that's what we do. But these subconscious cues are what play into it. So I still have some biscuits, but I've just mindlessly probably moderated down what I would rather versus the packet of hobnobs there. So we take that a little bit, and I'm not taking it to perfection because that's becoming obsessive, do you know what I mean? I'm just making the sprouts wet approach makes small incremental improvements that help me just curb off the overeating, perhaps take me into the undereating. But Brian Watson, for his fault, just talks about the mindless margin. I know. I'm talking. I'm not here. But mindless margin is we tend to notice when we overeat by ten to 20% or underreach by ten to 20%. So that's the problem with diets, because diets often take you well below in the feeling like, I've just not had enough. So we then potentially unconsciously overeat or we snap back. So if we can operate in a smaller margin under and do other things as well, because there are other levers to pull. But if we can do that mindlessly, it's almost like there's less effort because it's mindless, or at least we're dealing with stuff that leads to mindless overeating.
[41:47] Graeme: Yeah, that's helpful. And I think you talk about habits and triggers and habits themselves are things that you don't have to think about. They become better in your subconscious.
[42:05] Dave: Yes.
[42:06] Graeme: And I do think that's had a big role to play, because now I don't feel as if I'm on a diet. I feel lose a bit. Wig. And I'll try to lose it. But it doesn't feel like a diet it just feels this is part of my life I have changed how you definitely changed it I'm not taking a bit of planning and a bit of research and listening to yourself and doing some research on YouTube and all those sort of things as well so it's taken a bit of work to do but yeah. I think the trigger side of it is really important and building the Pablo and rituals around that as well so one of my key rituals is making coffee and I've never really been at the coffee before but I watched a YouTube video by some top coffee expert of how to make the perfect cup of coffee and I've not done it yet but I've got a routine and it's quite elaborate really for me in a cup of coffee you think a cup of coffee spoon but it's not instant so I'm using the kind of hob top coffee maker and you warm it up I warm it up first before I put the water in the water is already boiling when it goes in I put the coffee grinds in the container I don't tamper down because that's associated with that so I put it in. Turn the lid on I wait till I hear that gurgling in sound then I turn the heat off and put it in cold water by this time I've also got a mug with milk in and I've got a whiskey thing to make it all frothy and I pour it out so it's quite an elaborate routine to go through but I love it and then I get a cup of coffee and I have that at 10:00 as much as possible have at the same time I have it at 10:00 and that just sets me up for the day I don't have any lunch to make you have better fruit or whatever but I have something to eat at times that whole ritual I think it is that ritual really kind of just embeds into what I'm doing that day as well but I think the other point is sometimes that doesn't happen sometimes I've got a meeting at 10:00 or I'm out to decline at 10:00 or whatever and after the other part of it you can have these things that you can return to that can then ground you again but you've got to live your life in a way that I haven't got a sweet tooth anyway so I don't eat many biscuits biscuits is not a problem. Bread is a problem for me bread is the thing I eat tons of bread and I did eat tons of bread but I will still have spread sometime if I'm out for a meal and come with a basket of bread I'll be having a better bread I'm still going to have cake. I'm still going to have birthdays or whatever I'm going to have a slice of cake but without any of the associated guilt. Do you know what? I know that it's not supposed to be about they call it sin foods and the whole language around it is dominated around a judgment and I actually think the reason why I put on wait for so long and the reason why I didn't take any action and the reason why I didn't look at myself I didn't want photographs to take on myself and I realized why I never stepped on the status scales was shame and it was shame that made me put on that way and it's shame that we see all over the place on every social media. Even people with the best intentions will make people feel ashamed that they haven't sort of thing. And what struck me thinking about that is there's nothing to be ashamed of if you've put on weight. There's no shame in that at all. Biologically, evolutionary, it's the most natural thing to do. We've been designed to store fat we've been designed evolutionary that's what we did and consume and be attracted to high calorific food that was just if you look at some of the native people from in Africa when they go to spend a day climbing a tree to get some honey from some horrendous bees in Africa and so they'll do that we're all designed so being overweight carrying fat is perfectly normal and actually historically it was a sign of good health because even as close as Victorian. Even after that actually people who looked really stick thin and spirit were seen as unhealthy and they were unhealthy that's fresh people aspire to have fat kids. I remember some 1950 it was Tommy Steele half or six months that was called and one of the songs is about being a measure of success is having five kids because you could look after them, you were giving them more than what they needed. So the whole shame thing is horrendous and I think it's probably for me it was the biggest barrier, I think, to start that journey. I kind of mentally blocked it out so I kind of didn't want to think about it because I didn't want to feel a shame so I avoided shame as much as anything else.
[48:23] Dave: I think this is a really important because it's a fine line to tread when you talk about as we are about managing our weight down it's about doing it when we come to that choice and if we come to that choice but learning to be comfortable with ourselves is probably the bigger part of it. I don't know if you remember from the early part of the series I talked about the four principles that I would like to underpin the program if nothing else. But the fourth one is about how can it's trying to get us back into a headspace where we don't and then there may be always that instinctual thing because of condition but we tried we start to enjoy food, see less shame in it, feel less shame about it and just normalize. And I use that in Air Force as what is normal these days. But the point is kind of take away that because I think you're right, many of us carry that and I think there's laws I mean, I won't get into that. But the psychology around it there's people who talk about how there's almost a religious aspect to food and clean eating and it's always become almost religious. We see elements of that in it. I think you're right. How do we who have experienced that feeling of like I am hopeless, I'm useless, what are this, what are that? Kind of step away from that because it only makes things worse. It only pushes you into the dark, the darker places rather than coming up and thinking, you know what? I'm going to enjoy this celebration. Like you said, if you have a family celebration you wear on holiday, why not? And with that mindset, when we shift, it's not going to be as extreme because it feels like it's a famine now, it's a feast, it's more balanced, but we're not associating so emotionally with it. And we come back and we could come back to a more of a level. The rituals and routines, as you said, like the ground and I love that phrase because I think the grounding of the habits are the things that we need to develop to a point where we can set and forget. But around that, rituals and routines are very powerful because there's something more to it. They give you something more really, the best habits are the things that give you something positive back. That's why bad habits are so hard on that because they give you something like a sweet hit or something. But the best ones, I mean, do you miss the coffee routine? Because I know there's times when I've missed some of my little rituals around the morning and things like that, I kind of missed them. And coming back to it, it's grounded. It literally is a brilliant word.
[50:50] Graeme: Yeah, so I do and I don't drink a lot of coffee because I am unconscious that there's a downstate of coffee in terms of your sleep patterns and all sorts of things. So I am aware of that. There's some advantages, I believe, as well, in terms of how it processes fast, but only if you exercise straight after it. But I think I miss it. When we were on holiday, obviously I couldn't do that, but I made sure I had a cup of coffee. Not necessarily exactly the same time because the routine didn't work, but I had a cup of coffee and I enjoyed that cup of coffee. I only have one a day, that's all. I only have one cup of coffee a day. But I made a point of having it and it was a time when I could just relax and enjoy the coffee. And that was great. So it was a substitute. You get these substitute routines and habits when your core one can't be done, and that does, as you say, just getting back to this idea of losing weight is unnatural. Going on a diet, trying to lose weight is natural. You know, other species, you wouldn't come across a pride of lions, the one that's going, come on, we'll go out and hunt some nails. Oh, no, I think I've learned a bit of beef. I think I'll just skip this one. No other creature. You're fighting evolution, and in some respects, you're fighting your own metabolism and your own preconditions for survival. They're ingrained. And you've talked about this a lot when we were talking about stress, when you helped us with stress, with this idea that you were talking about the context of stress and that our bodies, our evolution hasn't kept up with the pace of change in modern life. And that's led to stress, and it's also led to excess weight. That becomes a health problem. We can't deny that it is cause health problems as well, but we need to take away that shame because it's nothing, absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. It's not a judgment that just happens. I don't know if you've read about the American Samoa and they had a tropical paradise. Absolutely incredible. They were generally big people, tall and powerful, but they had almost no issues with heart disease or early death to truth, those sort of things. But very, very good diet, very healthy people living in the paradise. So it became American when the Americans colonized it. And they brought with a whole new range of diets food, including food that was very high in Fructose. All of a sudden, it's got the worst. Not all of a sudden, but over time, that island has now got some of the worst obesity, worst levels of coronary heart disease and all those things, because the food that is given is bad for you. It's addictive as well. It keeps you back for it as well. So there's lots of lots of factors, environmental factors, evolutionary factors, everything. Fat is more inclined to push us towards store and fat than reducing fat. So if you can accept that that's just who we are as a species, you can't be ashamed of that, because that's just who we are as a species. Now, some people are just naturally have a different metabolism, but for most of us, that's what we're up against, really. And we're doing something that is unnatural, that is fighting against every part of our genetic evolution to be able to look good in a holiday. Photograph.
[55:22] Dave: I'm delighted to announce the imminent launch of the Midlife Reshape Academy.
[55:25] Graeme: This is a Lore time and cost.
[55:27] Dave: Commitment membership option for those of you who want to embark on your own midlife reshape with the support of a program supporting resources and courses q and a support from me and the chance to be part of the restless midlife community of likeminded people sharing similar calls and ambitions. So if you're feeling like your health has drifted, you're not in the shape you want to be and want to get back to feeling more comfortable in your own skin, then hop over to Midlifereshape comACADEMY to find out more and join the prelaunch Waitlist, where you'll be kept up to date with launch details, what's in store and to take advantage of founder member discounts. That's Midlifereshape Comaccalin. Yeah, you're right. I can't remember who said we live in an obesogenic environment. I'm not even sure that's a proper word, but it kind of talks about the fact it gets captured. We are still seeing with stress. We're on version one of the app. The world is on version 20 and it is abundant, fortunately and thankfully for so many of us, abundant beyond measure. But things are so easy and foods are designed to be so tasty, so colored down and it's linked into everything. This goes back to that mindlessness social pictures. Watching this food has become something that is just so ingrained in almost every aspect of life that it's no wonder where we move that way in terms of weird. This is the challenge, isn't it? Because let's accept that and try to work on that idea of our shame and feelings around it. But let's also look, what could I do? Genuinely? I remember you talking about you mentioned the kiss, the study video about playing football with your son and struggling and there's practical reasons why we might think I just want to improve my health a bit here. So if we do that, what can we do and what are the levers we can pull to do that in a world that's not really geared up for us to naturally do that so we've kind of find against it. I think there's still a lot of scope and you've done that as well. I'll run this by just in terms of the levers because I've been playing with this idea in my head, pulling out a few things, but if we look at that energy in versus energy out thing, we're trying to manage a space which is we're flawing a lot. My yoga teacher used to say, I want you to dance along the edge of the edge of discomfort. I don't want you to go into pain when you're stretching, I don't want you to feel too comfortable, I want you to dance along the edge. And I quite like that as a phrase for perhaps what we're trying to do here. Let's just dance along the edge so it doesn't become like too painful or something we can't sustain, but we can manage this and maybe we'll have a celebration here, et cetera. But the four levers are based on the energy in and out. We can work on the energy expenditure through activity exercise walk and whatever, so we can raise that. We've got three other levers, I guess, around the Energy Inn, which is around, I think, Peter ETIA from the Drive podcast, he talks about this three are you can moderate your calories down, your energy down by tracking managing your calories. That's obviously working on just purely the numbers of calories that you're taking your time. So you can manage calorie time or diet. And diet means you exclude certain foods and one is not better than the other, it's what works for you as an individual. But my feeling is, if you stress one system, one lever too much, you're pulling it into the red, there's more risk of it feeling or snapping, whereas if maybe you can pull a couple of those levers into just that work for you, they're a bit like a graphic equalizer. You're not putting stress as much on the system, perhaps it's more sustainable. I don't know what you think about that as a visual, I don't know if I've explained it that way, but this is something I've been playing with in my head for a bit.
[59:17] Graeme: Yeah, well, I think one of the key comments you made there was that it is individual and that's why I think it's funny because you'll hear people and they'll say, oh, I talked to such and such and they are on this diet and they've looked families and they've done really well. That's why when I'm telling people my experience, I always just say, well, that's just for me, other things might work for you, but for me this kind of works. It is definitely individual, but this idea of stress and that leaves I do get that visual and I do get it, but it is a balance, what we've got to be. And I've lost three stone, I've got my cholesterol down, I've got all the other sort of key health metrics down. People do this all the time, I think, they genuinely think and it's easy for me to get that maintenance as well. It's been easy, it's easier, but in reality it wasn't. It's like all those things when you've been through it and you've had a bit of success, you begin to think, but it wasn't, it absolutely wasn't. It's a bit like a childbirth, like we would never go through the second time you'd go like once you say, well, nowhere, but then you ask me, it wasn't too bad, and I'm saying, I was there, it was terrible, it was painful and long and all, but distance gives you a softer focus on what we've been through, but it's hard. So I think the only risk, Dave, is that we begin to think that we give people the impression.
[01:01:24] Dave: If you.
[01:01:24] Graeme: Had this idea of anti fragility above resilience, and it's about how you cope with pressure and the idea is that in order to grow, you have to experience pressure. And the metaphor they always use is in the gym when you're lifting the weight, or stress, I should say, you're putting stress on your muscles and you then grow from that. Now, the thing to miss out is if you put too much stress on, it's going to set your back. But I do get what you're saying. It is about making sure those leavers aren't too extreme and getting those levers right, but to acknowledge that they're still levers, there's still stress, it's still going to be challenging. It's not going to be a walk in the park, even when you meet people who say it was a walk in the park and they probably genuinely feel it. In reality, it wasn't. You've had to go hungry. You do have to go hungry a bit as well, I think, and you have to get comfortable with hunger as well, a bit, but it does put stress on your system. But the idea is to put that so that's probably where you leave a thing does work really well, is that it's about putting that right level of stress that allows you to rebound and get better from it.
[01:02:47] Dave: That's a really good point because you're right. I think one of the things that I often see is that we can start these new goals, these new things that we're starting with a lot of motivation. We're inspired to do a lot of motivation and therefore we take on the hard work and almost are a bit delusional about, well, I can do this, I can do this for however long. But I always say, don't worry, motivation will pass, there will be a deer when you can't be bothered or you don't want to. And how do we still do it then? That for me is the hard work. The hard work isn't getting stuck in and like you said, trying to lift loads away. It's the keeping it going, do you know what I mean? And that's where the habits so for me, the work I heard a phrase the other week where the goal is not to get to the five storm or whatever the goal is. The goal is the work that you do each day that moves you forward, which is for me, the goal is to sweat the sprouts every day. The sprout size habits are actions, that's the goal. But that takes the effort and the hard work. When you talk about weight, you've got to start, it's going to be hard work lifting quite a small weight, but you're not going to go from a small weight to a heavyweight, you're going to go incrementally up and you have setback and then this side. And it's getting our head into that space to understand that the sweating of the sprouts, the sprout size, incremental improvements, the habits that embed, that's where the work of the pin is. But if we keep it to a level that we know in the rest of our life, we can sustain. It. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. And maybe it's about the polish of it. This is not easy. At the same time, you've already got a busy, hectic crammed life. What we're not trying to do is add to the burden necessarily. We're trying to create a karma space where your head is in the game or you automate your shape, your mindless environment a little bit better just to contribute. But there will be times when you say you feel that discomfort and the practice is getting used to that discomfort, but in a weirder level that, you know, I've got this. I could do this. That's difficult. It's trial and error, isn't it?
[01:04:52] Graeme: It is, but discomfort is required. Otherwise in your comfort zone, you don't move forward unless there's a thing that we use, that I've used in organizations about strategic discomfort, that's about how your organization will change, is to create sometimes you have to create a degree of discomfort with the status quo. And if you want to change. If you want to go from here to there. You have to make there where they are now feel a lot less so if you've got employees who kind of don't want to use a new bit of machinery. You've got to make them feel a little less comfortable doing that at the same time showing them somewhere where they can go that they can get more comfortable with as well. Transitioning and as a transitionary. So if you do start service at that time when we apply a degree, strategic discomfort, their employees will be less satisfied. So long as that's a transitionary experience to somewhere but more positive, then that's okay. But that's got to be managed and planned and all those things. And I think the same degree is that, yeah, we have to feel that. My discomfort and it wasn't nice. It was horrible. The scales, the photographs, the feelings of fear, of dying early, fear of that was horrible. Now, no wonder I wanted to avoid it because it was horrible, but I needed it. I need that. I was reflecting back on the positive we've had about stress, and you interested me in this idea of good stress and bad stress as well. And I actually think there's nothing in life that is worthwhile that doesn't involve some stress. If you love someone, I've got amazing wife, I got an amazing family. That's not the least stressful situation to be in by the very nature of your love of someone, you will worry about them. You'll be concerned about them. You'll want them to be happy as well. And sometimes you question yourself and all those things. So it's not love is a stress, but the reward is significant. And I think everything that's worth doing, every change is particularly every change and everything pops, everything is worthwhile in light requires a degree of distress and discomfort.
[01:07:38] Dave: That's one of the biggest things that it's a challenge with stress. Management training. I'm going back to my early days and trying to break into this world is that it's seen as we need to reduce and eliminate stress. But I remember saying if you're breathing and you're living and breathing, you're in a state of stress because that is the essence of life. It is to what level and for how long, the chronic stress and all that. But you're right, everything has that cost to it, that stress. But the challenge we have is our psychological association to that and I think that goes back to the same. It's about shame with food or how I feel about myself or the journey I'm on. Because I think the challenge you talk about transition, I think that's such an important aspect of this is that when we embark on it, there's a lot of hope and optimism and so we take on a lot of demands in that hope and optimism and that's great. But at some point that will drift and we'll start a question it's not happening, I'm hitting the platinum, I'm getting nowhere, it's a pointless, it's useless, it doesn't work. And there's the stress of the effort of doing something and then we add on top all of that psychological stress of the narratives and stories we tell ourselves about it. What's the point? It's useless, it's getting me nowhere, et cetera. And I think that is the bit that we need to manage, not the stress of the thing. So you're right, there's stressful times in everything, but you're right, there's a payoff, but also about how we associate that to it. I've been through those times, what's the point, et cetera. But if we can start to just see the journey this is why I often say it have your goal, but get your head away from the goal. Don't keep checking in on that because you constantly remind yourself how far away from the goal you are checking. I had an interview with a friend of mine, Mal, which is one of the podcast steps, was probably just the week before this one. He talks about doing that because he's on this journey now for the second time and he says, I'm not even thinking about that. I'm not checking my weight until I go in from a quarterly check, from a diabetes there of the scale. And I know I'm going to be disappointed because in my head I know I'm going to lose a lot. I want to lose a lot more than I'm actually I know that. So I'm not thinking about it. I'm just concentrating on this, this and this, as I would say, the deer sized units of that. And I think these are the mind games that we have to start to play. But none of it is easy.
[01:10:03] Graeme: I can definitely empathize with miles into empathize with mile on that as well. And there is something I had my health check recently and I've got the lowest cholesterol level for ten years. But I was still disappointed a bit, because in my mind, it was going to be so much more dramatically than it was. That's the curse of an optimism optimist. Sometimes I think you always kind of disappoint yourself.
[01:10:47] Dave: This is me, I've just watched the CrossFit games, the 2022 CrossFit games, and there's people I've rooted for, Pat Velna and Brent Tlkowski, Canadians, and they've not positioned where they wanted to be. They wanted to be up in the position, their podium, etc. E and it's interesting because they're going through they've kind of put some lovely posts on Instagram about they're going to take time out of their family. They weren't where they wanted to be. I'm not going to be negative, I want to be honest about my feelings here, but I'll be back. And I think it's how we manage that disappointment all the setback. Because let's be right, if I'm on my journey, but for some reason there's a bag of a packet of chocolate hobnobs in the fridge, that takes a hell of a lot of willpower for me to resist. I'm going to end up disappointed in myself. So how do I manage that? Do I manage that or do I not manage it and spiral off? Or do I just manage it? Like you said, I'm involved to do this, what can I do to mitigate the damage or to at least make the risk of it not happening? And this is why I like to come back to the levers, is if you have something so extreme to go back to when you fall off the wagon, but the option that you go back to is so extreme, that's a massive thing to go back to yet again. But if what you're going back to is some basics that attacks them but they're not out of your head space, you can do that and do some basic practices and habits. Revisit this. It's less of a journey when you do spin off. Does that make sense?
[01:12:11] Graeme: Yeah, definitely. But it's a journey, really, but, yeah, good stuff.
[01:12:24] Dave: It's been a kind of conversation that, hasn't it?
[01:12:28] Graeme: I'm still getting all the fact that you've got a yoga teacher, to be honest.
[01:12:32] Dave: It's funny, I did have a wheel ago when I was in custody. We had such an awkward position before held, but it was such an awkward position we would work in that I developed back problems. So I went to a yoga class locally and I credit that because I went for about six months and talked into the power of yoga, but also relaxation practice, which was always part of the end of it, so that's another story. But I credit that six months for some basic practice I took on and for now, having great flexibility. So it shows you that power of incremental change. Even over six months, it had a lasting effect and I still can do things like touch my toes and stuff like that, which was not an option before, so I don't have one now. But it's a great example of how practicing something routine over time, it appears, dividends future, particularly in the physical realm. I think.
[01:13:34] Graeme: In terms of your health goals, I know you've got various objectives and aims and what are they?
[01:13:47] Dave: Well, I suppose the big aim is to be fitter at 66 than I was at 45 when Rosie was born. The bar was Louis. A friend of mine always says, but that is the long term. But the current thing I've got a couple now actually, but the current is Operation D move I call it, which is to sort of slim down the man moves because I've lost a bit of width and plateau, but I've still got thought.
[01:14:09] Graeme: That's such a brave thing to say.
[01:14:11] Dave: I know, but the thing is, I've got to be honest, I'm on this journey as well.
[01:14:19] Graeme: The one thing that we never talk about isn't there, we don't admit that's.
[01:14:31] Dave: The goal that I'm working on. And I'm tweaking the levers really, because I've got my little plan. Thank you for listening. You'll find all show notes, links and resources mentioned@midlifereshaped.com podcast and it means so much if you could spread the word to your fellow restless midlifers, share the show and links and if you aren't already subscribe to the show and your podcast feed of choice. And one more thing, if you enjoy the show, it would be great if you could read it by visiting midlife. Reshape. Comreview. It would mean so much and I may even give you a shout out in return. And a quick final thanks to production assistant Karen North of North BA and for the music, which is called Silverstar by the awesome Logan Nicholson of Musicformakers@musicfamakers.com. Take care for now and don't forget you really can reshape your midlife health and rekindle that spirit of adventure.
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